Episode 8: 8 Pregnancies, 6 Miscarriages, 1 IVF, 2 Kids with Courtney Dashe

speaker-0: Hey everybody and welcome back to Confessions of a Slow Cooker. I'm Ashlyn Blue and today is going to be a doozy. I'm just going to go ahead and tell you. I heard Courtney Dash's story a week ago after our mutual friend Nellie connected us. And then I was like, hey, I have to drive to Denver tomorrow. So about three hours to kill. I think I had to call Courtney back about 10 times because the Rocky Mountains are not known for seamless service. And I should know that because I have lived here almost a decade.

speaker-1: Anyway,

speaker-0: Tell me the story. We did. And her story is wild. But before I let her start telling the saga, let me give you a little background on Courtney. Courtney Daft is a Nashville based singer songwriter and a memoirist. And in the midst of her eight year long battle with infertility, Courtney co-hosted the podcast, Chasing Dreams, Raising Babies, and formed the musical duo, Hadley Park, named after their four day apart daughters. Courtney is building a community through her sub stack.

speaker-1: Today.

speaker-0: The life I fought for. And it's for those whose lives have gone off script, writing about creativity, loss, motherhood, and resilience. She enjoys advocating with Resolve, the National Infertility and Family Building Association, sharing her family building story with legislators working to expand access to care, and then her favorite thing, spending time with her husband, son, and miracle babies. Welcome to the show, Courtney. How are you?

speaker-1: Great! How are you today? I'm happy to be here.

speaker-0: ⁓ me too. Me too. mean, yeah, it's another day. Child's at school, thankfully.

speaker-1: ⁓ that's good. Mine was homesick, but he's departed with daddy for a little bit. So happy to talk to you. Hopefully uninterrupted unless the dog chimes in. We'll see. But I am not.

speaker-0: I'm in the mountains, I'm not driving through the mountains. So, are good on my end. Okay, so where do you want to start? I'm gonna let you go where you want to go.

speaker-1: So, like you said, it's a doozy. ⁓ I don't want to miss any parts of it and I want to let you kind of dive in and ask questions where you want to. So, I guess maybe just giving you a little background. ⁓ I moved across the country from California to Nashville chasing the music dream. I wanted to be a songwriter and I eventually landed my dream gig. I was writing songs full-time for Martina McBride who was like my childhood idol and literally At that point in my life, was just like, this is it. I have made it. This is all I need. I don't want anything else. If I never get married and have kids, I'm going to be okay because I am just fulfilled. Okay. So then fast forward a little while to like my late twenties and I was like, ⁓ maybe I need to focus a little more on trying to meet somebody. mean, still love music, but gosh, like it would be great to, you know, get married, probably have a family. It wasn't like. I was never one of those that was like, I have to have babies. It was like, want to chase my dream. I want to find my person. If that person and I are like amazing together, like yes, let's go have kids. So I meet my husband. He's a fellow songwriter. We fall in love. He's got a son already. I'm like, wow, this is not how I thought this was going to come packaged. So, but I fall in love with his son instantly. was like, okay, actually this is really cool. I really do like this whole mom thing. think he ended up being almost five when we got married. ⁓ So cute, such a fun, from, I knew him when he was like two, two and a half-ish, maybe is when I first met him. It was just really fun and I was like, you know what? I think I do like this, this thing. Let's, you know, eventually, eventually like, I'll want more of these guys. He's pretty awesome. So, a year into our marriage, I get pregnant by mistake. Like we were not actively trying. I was. kind of scrambling, like I'm not where I want to be with my career. This isn't, this isn't, I'm not ready for this yet. I can't picture what it's supposed to look like, but here we are. Then I go to the ultrasound appointment, see the little heartbeat there. He's measuring like, he or she was measuring eight weeks, six days, and I was just done. I was like, ⁓ my gosh, that is my baby. You know, that is my, that is okay. And it was like everything just instantly shifted and I was like, okay, I... I will figure this out. cannot wait to meet this little thing and we'll figure it out, you know? And then two weeks later, I started bleeding and I called the nurse's office and they're like, you know, a lot of people bleed during the first trimester, don't worry. Like it's really common. Just call us back if you feel like you have a lack of pregnancy symptoms or, you know, just it gets worse or whatever. So I go, I get off the phone. I'm just like, pushing on my boobs like 80 times a day. like, like, I pregnant still? these still hurt? Yeah, I was like, this feels, I still am so tired. Like this, I think I'm still pregnant. But about another week goes by and it's like, this is still, I'm still bleeding. Like this does not feel right. So I call them again and they're like, well, we'll get you in for an ultrasound again. So I go in and my husband's with me and I'm holding his hand. I just. like so cold, those offices are so cold, but when I get nervous, like I just start, I just shake and I'm like extra cold. So I'm just like laying on the table, just like shaking and like the second it shows up on the screen, I'm staring at it. And I just, I just like, just remember like staring and staring and staring and like nobody said anything. And I'm just clutching my husband's hand and I'd only seen, I'd only seen it like two weeks prior on the same screen and on. I'm staring at it I'm like, ⁓ my gosh, it looks exactly the same, but I'm just staring at it. Like I knew the second I saw it, I'm like, please move. Just, I was like, please, please move, please move. And it's just like not moving. And finally the ultrasound tech was just like, I'm so sorry. And I mean, it just was, it will forever be one of the worst, like worst, most imprinted in my mind, like days of my life, because it's like, I just. I just like wrapped my brain around it being here and this started picturing the new life like that I was gonna live and just, you all the things that you get excited for. And then it just got, it just ripped me out. I mean, I slipped off the table. I like crawled on my husband's lap. I was making sounds I've never heard myself make. The tech just like slipped out the door and I was just like, I mean, it was just awful. And you know, anytime something big and traumatic happens, like a death in the family or anything like. nothing else matters. Like the world just like shuts off and slows down. And it's like, you are just in this moment when you're just like hyper-focused on that. And that you realize that's really all that matters anyway. So we go through the motions, we go down the hall and meet with the doctor. And she tells me it was called a missed miscarriage. And it was still measuring exactly eight weeks, six days, just like it had been two weeks prior. And of course I go into all the questions like. Did I take a bath that was too hot? Did I exercise too much or not enough? Is it because I was mean to my sister when I was a kid? You go through everything, in every single question the doctor was like, no, no, did not do anything wrong. I I went through the list, girl. then she's like, you can have a dancey or to... We now have to like figure out how we're going to get out of your body because it's a miscarriage. So it's been not alive in there for quite a while. it's your body's not. Yeah. And I was bleeding, but it like was not moving itself along. And so she's like, we can wait a little longer and you can like, miscarry at home or we can schedule you for a DNC and it'll be over faster. Your body will be back to normal faster because the hormones won't still be like the second it's all cleaned out, hormones will be gone. You'll be like,

speaker-0: is like you're not gay.

speaker-1: It's a reset. So I was just like, I cannot believe I just walked in here today, like hoping to see my baby. Now I have to figure out how to get it out of me. And so we scheduled it for like the next day. Scheduled to do you see, I decided that that's what I just said at that point. I was like, if this is over, I want it to be over. So I go in and. I mean, I had one of the most amazing anesthesiologists just happen. He's like a Vanderbilt Children's Hospital ⁓ guy usually, but like somehow I got the guy that usually works with children. And I'm telling you, I was fragile and I was a disaster. I just couldn't, I don't know, when I woke up from the procedure, I just woke up sobbing and I could not, I just felt so empty. Like you go from feeling like, you have all these hopes and dreams and knowing there's an actual life being created in you and now it's no longer there. And I mean, I had to ask all the questions like, do you, where's my baby gonna go if I have a DNC? What happens? And she was like, my doctor had told me like, well, I mean, it's just soft tissue. There's really not a lot to salvage. just, would go to the lab. it made me feel so sick. Cause I was just like, like, and I don't know what I wanted. Like I still don't know if there's not a bet. There's not a good option. Like, What are you gonna do? Like bury it in a cemetery when it's only like the size of a raspberry and it's disintegrating? Like it's, there's nothing to salvage, but also you're like, you're doing what with my baby? So the whole thing was just like a whole, it just, the whole experience completely reset my entire life. Like completely recalibrated everything. Like I no longer cared about music at all at that moment. And not just that moment. Like- But just saying a lot. For that period of time.

speaker-0: you wanted.

speaker-1: Yes. And it's like, I didn't even know I wanted it that badly until it was completely yanked out from under me. And then it was like, okay, well, the second we're allowed to try again, we're going for it now. So the task has been assigned. We are going to make this happen. So literally like I got my period and then I get the okay to try again. We get pregnant the first time and They're like, we can monitor your HCG this time. So the second you get a pregnancy test, in and we'll monitor it. It should double every 48 hours. So I go in again. It hadn't doubled. The nurse was like, I'm so sorry. This is like so low that like, can't even believe you caught it on a drugstore test. it was like the bare minimum, like 25, I think, or something. And then it went down. And so I'm sitting there like standing in a gas station parking lot on the phone, just like. well, what does that mean? I mean, I'd never heard of a chemical pregnancy. That's not a normal term for me. Like, she's like, it's probably just a chemical pregnancy. And it just means you're basically going to get like your period in a couple of days. It shouldn't feel much different. And she was right. I mean, it didn't really feel much different, but you know, your body's still got a jolt of those hormones. You're still, and mentally you're just like, ⁓ my gosh, I just lost another one. So after that, my doctor, was like, you know what, we're going to do a slew of tests now because you are now, I think it's different for, I don't know if it's different per state or per like doctor or I don't know, but for her at that time, because I had had two losses, I was allowed to do all this testing and insurance was going to cover it. So I had like, yeah, a whole hemophilia panel done to check blood clotting disorders. had genetic testing of some sort. I know Dave did too, but I don't know if it was at that point or some other. time for him. ⁓ It probably was at the same time. And so we had a bunch of testing done and everything came back normal except I did have two blood clotting disorders that were like considered really mild in the grand scheme of them. Like there are some that are serious that even in regular non-pregnant life can be a big deal. These are considered very mild. One's called MTHFR and one is called PAI-1 and One's thought to like make me clot a little more and one's thought to make me not break down clots as much and it's thought to possibly contribute to miscarriage, but they weren't really sure and so it was like take a baby aspirin and take this methylated folate pill ⁓ So your body can like skip the conversion process of the certain B vitamin and all this stuff I'm like, okay. Well that sounds easy enough. So I start taking those ⁓ the methylated vitamin thing just like I mean, I was like laying on my couch and Dave would come in and he's like, what is wrong with you? was like, everything hurts. Like every joint in my body hurts. And so I know super weird, other people take this thing, no problem. But long story short, I was like, I just can't take it. I tried to crush it. I tried to take like little bits at a time and like build up to it. Didn't work.

speaker-0: Well, how in the world is your body supposed to give you like a baby if you're like, I can't move. ⁓ I know.

speaker-1: No, exactly. So that's my thought process. I called the doctor and I was like, I can't survive a day, let alone like nine months of this. This is not going to happen. And she was like, listen, I've never had a patient have that reaction like you are. But I mean, the second I stopped it, it would be like two days later, I felt better. So it was clearly that. So she's like, listen, we don't know for sure that that even that that gene mutation like even affects. pregnancy, which is like an assumption that it might. So I'm okay with you just not taking it. So I just didn't take it. But then I had read up on it and all this stuff and I was just nervous. I mean, this B vitamins are so important for like spine, like you don't want your kid to have spina bifida and like random like birth defects if you don't get enough. So then I'm like freaked out about that. So as you can see, like, and as you know, the scares start adding up and in your head you're just like, oh my gosh, but what if this or what if this or what if this and this? And then it's just suddenly like, you're stressed and then you're not supposed to be stressed, but you're stressed that you're stressed. And then the cycle continues. so it was.

speaker-0: Just Someone will tell you, just relax.

speaker-1: Yeah, and you just want to punch him in the face because that is, you can't, you cannot make yourself relax. It's not possible. So, and especially if your husband says it, you really want to punch that. I was like, you will not, you will not say that again. Like, oh my gosh. And he had his own stressful life happening at that moment. We, my stepson, we had custody battle at the same time. There were so many stressors that I was just like, how is this supposed to happen? Meanwhile, I started like being a psycho and tracking my It's not psycho, side note, I don't mean to offend anyone with that. I'm just saying I felt no-

speaker-0: was psycho. I felt, yeah, I was obsessive.

speaker-1: like tracking my basal body temperature on graph paper with a freaking chart, like highlighting where, ⁓ today's the day, let's go. And you know, it's just, I mean, I knew, I knew my cervical mucus, I knew all the great stuff, you know? And it's like, I start realizing, okay, maybe I'm ovulating late too. So I bring that info into my doctor and she's like, okay, ⁓ well, ⁓ I also asked her, was like, Should I go to a fertility clinic? Like I've had two losses, should I go to a fertility clinic? Which honestly, from their perspective, what I had to that point was probably not that much. Like they probably were like, I mean, no, you don't really need it yet. But she's like, you want to, you can. So was like, yes, I want to go to a fertility clinic. I go to this fertility clinic in Nashville and it just was not, I don't know, I probably shouldn't have done it. It was like the vibe was all depressing and dreary and dark and. the people weren't very warm at the front desk and like all the things. I just felt like, ⁓ my gosh, this is not what I need right now. And then you, it just, it was just icky. And, and the...

speaker-0: If I can jump in, just like any doctor's office or acupuncture, acupuncture office or anything that's like trying to calm you down or.

speaker-1: The vibe has to be... Yes! The vibe matters! environment? Yeah. The aesthetics? Yes.

speaker-0: do play a part and the front should. It's like.

speaker-1: First, be delicate. Yes, delicate, personable, wear a smile even on your bad days, like all the things because you've chosen to take that job and that job is bigger than you realize.

speaker-0: Anyway, I've got like no.

speaker-1: No, I know. So it was just one of those things. I went there and I was like, okay, so I talked to the doctor. He was like, you know, we could put you on Clomid. It's a fertility drug. It's just a pill you take. It should move your ovulation back and we'll monitor you with an ultrasound. if you look like your follicles have developed properly, we can give you a trigger shot in the office. If it looks like you're not quite there yet, we'll send you home with the trigger shot. And I was like, I might have to do a shot myself. Like this is... I don't think I can do that, you know? And this is a girl I actually was choosing between like going into music or medicine. Like I liked both, I'm fascinated. But the idea of having to give myself a shot, I was like, ⁓ man. So I got lucky. They were able to do it in the office that time. And it was like on my birthday that year. And I was just pumped. I'm like, sweet. get, at that time I was 32, I ⁓ want to say. Anyway, do the Clomid thing like that. doesn't work. I was like, I really don't want to do this over and over again through this clinic. I don't like it. And my regular OBGYN was like, you know, I can just prescribe you Clomid and you don't have to do the trigger shot because for you, we're just trying to move your ovulation back. And once you release an egg, like it should shut down your other follicles. Yes, there is an increased risk of like multiples, without the trigger shot and everything, like really, she was like, I just. I think you're gonna be okay just doing the clomid. So I was like, oh good, I don't have to go back to that place. So I do clomid a couple more months, but she did say, you you can't do this forever. Like your follicles and everything needs a break. So I think she was gonna let me do it like three or four months and then call it, make me take a break from it. So I did it a couple more months, nothing's happening. And then I was just so stressed out. I was like, forget it. So my mom was like, let's go to Europe. I was like, let's go to Europe. So my sister, my mom and I go to Europe. It was like. But I still in Europe, it's like I didn't want to drink I didn't want to do anything because it was just like what if What if that stays in your body and what if when I get back I to try again and what if and it's just all that stuff and so I mean I probably did have a glass of wine, but I wasn't like really like I was too scared No, no, not at all. And so yeah, I got to spend time with them, but exactly so

speaker-0: to really die at that point.

speaker-1: Anyway, it was still a great like breather, even though it wasn't a full breather. ⁓ Get back, get back on Clomid. She's gonna let me do it three more months. On the third month, I get pregnant again. And I was just like, ⁓ thank God. But then I'm just scared again. It seems like it's going okay. My HCG is rising. I have not had an ultrasound yet and. I wake up one day, we have a cabin like an hour and a half from Nashville. I wake up and I am just like, have this throbbing pain on my right side. And I was like.

speaker-0: I can't do this.

speaker-1: I think I have an ectopic pregnancy. This is terrible. So I go to the ER. I call the on-call doctor because it's over a weekend. She's like, you don't have time to come back to Nashville. You need to go to the ER where you are because, and I don't want to do that. I'm out in the middle of nowhere. I want to come back to Nashville. she's like, you go. Right. Exactly. she's like, no, need, if it is an ectopic, you need to go right where you are ASAP. So I was like, ⁓ great. So then I'm freaking out. We go.

speaker-0: in a row.

speaker-1: Dave drops me off, I think, because we had my stepson and we didn't want him to know what was going on. He's little, he doesn't need to know any of it. So maybe they stayed with me for a little while, but then I think they left. Long story short, I'm there forever and it's a weekend and they have to call the radiologist, all the things. It ends up being a cyst, a ruptured cyst on my ovary, which can happen when you're on Clomid, because it's puffing up all your follicles. And so things just like... get big and things rupture. so anyway, ends up being fine. They confirm that there is a pregnancy in my uterus. I wasn't allowed to see it because it's not like a normal ultrasound. When you go to the ER, you don't get to see these things. They like keep the screen away from you, all the things. anyway, I get through that. A few weeks later, have the... Oh yeah, I know. I don't know. It's like an ER policy thing, which it was really weird.

speaker-0: You're still gonna pay for it, why keep it?

speaker-1: Um, so anyway, get through that. I'm like, okay, so a ruptured follicle, whatever. I go in for my regular ultrasound with my OB like a week or so later and see the baby. Everything looks great. Um, we're like so relieved, so happy, but like, I just mentally I'm like, I just got to get through first trimester. I got to make it longer than eight weeks, six days. That was like my mental marker. So get that far. Um, I'm in like. I saw you crocheting earlier today. It's like I was in this weird phase where I felt like nothing was going right in my life. So I created an Etsy shop called the burlap shack and I was like making burlap things. Like it's just one of those weird things where like music didn't feel like it was on the right track. Pregnancy wasn't happening right. Like what can I do that I'm actually gonna have people tell me I'm doing something good and like have instant gratification. So I started selling this random stuff. I was making like burlap roller shades for our cabin and I was like, I could sell these. So I started doing this. I'm in a Joanne's fabric store. I love buying like burlap. What? I love. ⁓ I know. I think it's gone now. The one that was here and like, and Cool Springs. Who's that? I know, but I was there and my husband and stepson were next door in like sports academy or whatever the store was.

speaker-0: Joanne.

speaker-1: And I literally squat down in there and I was like, ⁓ my gosh, what is that? And I feel this piercing like sharp pain in the back of my thigh. And so I called the doctor and of course it's a weekend again. And she's like, okay, you need to monitor it. Are your ankles getting fat? No. But I'm just like, ⁓ my gosh, I'm having like, ⁓ it's called a DVT. ⁓ yeah, I'm like in the car. I literally am like. No, my ankle's fine. It still hurts, yes, but not maybe not as bad. But so there's this thing, a DVT is a clot that starts in the back of your leg, like in and it can travel and lodge in your lungs and cause a pulmonary embolism. So I'm freaking out. And like, why do I know this already? I don't even know, but I did. And so, ⁓ probably because I had the blood clotting disorder. So I was like, what is that? And so anyway. Yeah. And so she like talks me off the ledge, but

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: I had it by chance, like had an appointment with my OB the next day anyway, just a regular checkup. And then they scheduled like an extra like ultrasound for my veins and my leg. So I go, everything's fine. She's like, pregnancy is just weird. Things get like kind of lax, tissues and cartilage and random things. They just like get looser. And so who knows what just felt like it popped or whatever in your leg, but we're just going to call it that until We know anything otherwise. anyway, that was it. The rest of my pregnancy goes fine. Like I make it, have my daughter like maybe six days early, like almost completely full term. And I was just like, ⁓ I've made it. This is amazing. Like the sense of just like, you know, relief and accomplishment and, just, I don't know, it was great, but then you start having this anxiety of what if I can't keep it? What if for some reason it's, it's like PTSD or something and you just are feel, you still just have all these fears. I know all new mothers have fears. Like, I don't know how to do this. What am I doing? But I feel like it was extra because I had had a couple of losses and I was just like, nobody can hold my baby but me. No, I felt very protective and she just seemed to want me anyway. Like she didn't want my husband. So I was like, I'm good. So I was just taking on like a lot and whatnot, but it was okay. mean, we were making it and everything was going smoothly and. By chance, I had a friend that was also a songwriter and she had a baby four days before I had mine and it was a girl. And we were like, it's just really nice to have a friend that's got the same timeline with their kid as you. I don't know if you have one out there or anywhere.

speaker-0: met them all in birthing class and our kids are all boys and they all are within like three weeks apart, which is so nice.

speaker-1: Amazing. See, it is amazing. It truly is. Like, it's just a gift to have somebody like that. And especially when I was like, okay, I got through this chapter of this crazy pregnancy thing, but now how do I incorporate it back to my first love, my music stuff? How is this gonna work? And so the two of us started writing every week and then... We would just have our babies together. was like, we called it play dates, but let's be honest, they're in their bouncers just like chilling while we can. But it was great. You know, the first six months, it's like, you can actually accomplish a lot with them, with you or even the first year. So yeah, they're just hanging out. So it was really like a special, amazing time for me because I had someone to go through it with. Like even my husband, he would get to go communicate with people in the outside world and write and work, you know, talk to his publishers, play shows, whatever. And he'd come back and I'd be like,

speaker-0: because

speaker-1: She pooped 10 times before 11 a.m. I cannot even, and he's just kinda like eyes glaze over. They just didn't, he didn't get it, but my friend got it. Like she could text me at 3 a.m. Are you by chance up in nursing? ⁓ yeah, I am. Yeah I am, and I can't sleep now. So tired, but I can't sleep. So it's just nice to have that, and she and I ended up like just forming a whole, like ⁓ a duo together. We were trying to package ourselves as like a writing team, but then we ended up having know, opportunities to play shows and stuff. And we're like, okay, why not? So we just start like saying yes to stuff and bringing our girls and like either a family member would come or I mean, the shows were always around where one of us had family. So we ended up playing a bunch of wineries in Virginia where she had family and then out in California in Carmel, which is driving distance for my mom. she came and just, was. It ended up being like a few years where we really just were doing this with our daughters and we got to watch them kind of grow up together. And it was really just amazing. But somewhere in there, I start like, like around when my daughter was probably two to three, was like, I kind of want another one. And they, you know, I hoped like, hoped that we figured it out. Like, Baby aspirin worked and maybe and Clomid. And so maybe that's my formula, my magic concoction. And anyway, but meanwhile, Dave's like not on board. So there's one time when he gets on board, but I'm not on baby aspirin. I'm not on the Clomid. He's on board. I'm like, seize the moment. So we go for it. Get pregnant and it like right off the bat, like not happening right. It's the HCG is not doubling. Nothing's looking right. This just draws out for like, I don't know. It was probably around nine or 10 weeks. We go on spring break during that period of time, like that had been planned beforehand. You know, we were trying to like live life normally. And the whole time I'm just like a tense, nervous wreck going, am I going to miscarry today? Am I going to miscarry today? And then like, I had a, ⁓ an ultrasound at one point and the, doctor for that ultrasound place was like, The baby looks great. It's at like six weeks, two days. It looks perfect. I really think you have your dates wrong. I really think that this one's gonna be fine. Cause I told her I'm just a nervous wreck. And she's like, I really think this one's gonna make it. And I go, I don't have my dates wrong. I know, I know I don't have my dates wrong. Like I know my cycle. Like no one knows their cycle. And she's like, well, just stay positive about it. Cause it looks great. And I'm just like. Damn it, like, I know it's not going well. It's like, it was supposed to be eight weeks by now, not six weeks, two days. I know this. So it was just one of those things where I just knew it wasn't going well from the beginning. So I'm back in Nashville after spring break. I'm playing a show with my friend. We called ourselves Hadley Park, named after our daughters, Hadley and Parker. And we're playing at this elementary school where our kids don't even go to school, but we agreed to do it. was some benefit show. So we go, and it was only three songs. It was like a quick little set and then they had other people lined up. So I go and I start feeling terrible and I'm pregnant, but it's not going well. So I'm just like, what is happening? Make it through the set barely. was like, I've got to go. I've got to go right now. And I just like get out of there as fast as I can. I pull into my driveway and I literally park in the driveway. I can't even lift my guitar. literally am just like this. I feel something is not right. Text my husband from the driveway, I was like, can you please come get my guitar? And I run up the stairs, I go straight up to our room, I'm like in the middle of changing into like my pajamas. I literally just felt really bloated, but like, and it almost felt like super like if you were gassy, but like there was no gas, like nothing's happening. was just like, what? Yeah, and pain, really, really painful. And I was just like, what on earth? And I'd actually had an ultrasound that morning. And they had ruled out any possibility of ectopic pregnancies or so they thought. And so I was just like, okay, they said it's not ectopic, but what on earth is this? What is going on? And I literally had my shirt on and my underwear. didn't have my pajama pants on and I just like curl up in a ball on the floor. And I'm texting Dave, I'm like, you have to come up here. You have to call the doctors. I cannot move. cannot move. Something is, I'm afraid I'm going to rupture something. I don't know what's going on. There's no blood or anything, but I'm just like, I feel so awful. So he's on, you know, calling. It's like a Friday night. He's calling the on-call line and they're of course just like, what's her name? What's her address? And I'm losing my mind. go, get off the phone and call 911. I can't take it anymore. Don't let me die. I started thinking I'm literally going to die. So, and I know that sounds probably dramatic, but like it was that bad, that bad. the ER people, mean, the ambulance comes, the whole thing and I like, have to get myself down to their ambulance. I, but I'm like hunched up. I'm holding my one knee up to my chest. Cause I felt like if I straightened it, was going to like rupture something. And I'm telling them the whole thing. I'm like, I just feel like maybe I have an ectopic pregnancy. don't know if it's ruptured or it's going to. And meanwhile, my daughter is asleep in the other room. My neighbor comes over and is like staying with her. Dave follows the ambulance in his car. The guy in the ambulance is like, Have you ever had a kidney stone before? And I was like, yeah, actually 17 years ago when I was in college. he's like, I really think that's what it is. I don't think it's an ectopic. And I was like, really? And I get there. Sure enough, it's a kidney stone. is. Yeah.

speaker-0: You're so lucky. Let me just... I mean at this point... It's happening.

speaker-1: I know there's been a lot of things that happened. So that one was really fun. They pumped me full of morphine. It was one of these weird things where I was like, this pregnancy is not going to make it anyway. Can I have some more morphine? Because like it just nothing was going right. Make it through that. I don't know. The kidney stone, just eventually, guess that weekend, I just laid around with my daughter. She thought it was great fun to like sit in bed with mom all weekend. She was like, daddy, could you bring us some more soup and crackers? And she's like, this is fun. was like, yeah, it's so fun. Like I'm dying. know. So anyway, that was a mess. I don't really remember. It was not much longer. And I did miscarry that baby at home. I was supposed to watch my husband play a show at the Bluebird cafe. I had started hemorrhaging that morning and the babysitter that was scheduled to watch Parker, I texted her and I was like, Hey, this is really awkward. ⁓ and you can say no, but I'm not actually going to the show. I'm miscarrying right now and I would love you to still come. And I would love you to just take my daughter so that I can just be by myself. You know, I just like, I'm hurting and the effort it would take me to like get her to bed and all the things when my body is just, and she was like, ⁓ my God, I'm so sorry, but yes, I will be there. And so, I mean, it just, felt so. Lucky, don't have, I didn't really have family in town. had my mother-in-law, but she was a lot older and I just didn't have anybody else. And I just felt like Parker, my daughter was the most comfortable with this girl. And I don't know, she was a godsend. she comes. It worked out that way. can't say that like, if I hadn't already had her scheduled, I'm not sure if I would have called and been like, Hey, come over while I do this. But it worked out that way. And she was just, she was actually in school for nursing too. So I was like,

speaker-0: great idea. that, you know, I mean,

speaker-1: You need to know. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So she afraid of this. Right. And that one was weird. It was like, was pretty sure I had mostly miscarried already by the time she got there. I don't know how detailed you want me to go on this, but I just felt like everything fell out of my stomach. Like that morning I had woken up and it just, everything fell out. I couldn't even see what was happening in the toilet. Was that painful? It was like, yeah. I mean, it was and it-

speaker-0: You can talk about the things.

speaker-1: continued to be painful the whole day and that night when she came, but I do feel like most of it happened. Like when I woke up that morning, it was just like this, I don't know, like if you've ever been sick and like you, you've got the runs. It's like you had, I was like, I always had that and also like cramping from like, like your period and like all the things were just, everything was like cramping, everything. Everything was cramping, falling out. I did not even, like I couldn't have even. if I had wanted to look and see if there was something to look at, I couldn't, you could not tell what was what in that. So this is a whole thing that I've talked to many other women about, like you flush the toilet and you're like, did I just flush my baby? I mean, it's awful, but what else are you supposed to do? It is, it is. I mean, I have friends that have also had that happen and it's not gonna pick a... ⁓ It's happened to people in airport bathrooms. It's happened to people like, what are you gonna do? And this is where like it is so hard because there are no great answers and there's nobody that's, people that have been through it can talk about it and sympathize and empathize, but people that have not been there, like they feel like they're at an extra loss, I think, because they're just like, I don't even know what to say. Well, we don't really know what to say either. We've been through it and we still don't know what to say. It's just awful, it sucks. that one, that was pretty traumatic. And then my husband was like, I do not want to do this. We had a lot going on. I think we were in the middle of custody case number two for our stepson or something. It was just a nightmare. Like so much stress. Didn't have it happening. Another year or so goes by and he's just not on board. And that was so hard for me because I still was just like, I want another one. I love my daughter so much. This is the best thing ever. Why would I not want another one of these?

speaker-0: you at this point do you think?

speaker-1: I think I was, okay, if she was born when I was like 33, so I was probably like 35, 36, somewhere in there. And you know, I'm starting thinking like my clock is ticking. Like I am now geriatric in pregnancy world. So Dave doesn't understand this. He's 10 years older than me, but he's just like oblivious to all this. Like he's got his great qualities, but I was the one that had to monitor all this stuff. I was the one that. really digested and processed the information from the doctor and did all the Google searches and all the things, you know, and it's my body. So yes, maybe some of the problem was him, who knows, but it still falls on me because I'm the woman who's got the cycle, who's got all the things like monitoring, know? So it's just a lot. ⁓ But I finally, finally, we get to a place in life where like Parker was about four. So I would have been like 36. No. Yeah, she's four or five, so 36 or 37. And life is feeling less stressful. Dave and I are like in a good place with everything. Like we're feeling good about our relationship. We're feeling good about like finances are feeling a little better. We'd been like in a hole for a while with our custody cases. Like it just, everything was just feeling better. Parker was like so self-sufficient by age four, you know. You're not worried about her like plugging something into an electrical socket and like hurting herself anymore. Just all that stuff. And I was like, Dave. still really want one more." And he's like, oh my gosh, can't you just be happy with what we have? He's like, we have David, who was my stepson, who lived primarily with us. And he was, if Parker was four, he would have been around 10. So 10 or 11 in there. And he's like, we have David, we have Parker, we're good. We're man on man coverage. Like, this is great. And I can't explain it. mean... It's one of those things on the outside people can judge. I probably would have judged when I was younger and didn't have kids. Like you've got one or you've got two, like can't you just be happy? And like, that's essentially what my own husband said, but you can't, you want what you want. And like, there's not always a, like a rationalization possible with certain things, but I just felt like I was not done. I needed to go for it again. So we start the whole process, the Clomid, all the things. And ⁓ I got pregnant. I don't think it was the first try, but it was one of the first few. And then I'm eight weeks. eight weeks, six days was still my marker, like my mental marker, just from that first one. It's like, if I can get past that. So I make it around eight weeks and I start bleeding. This time, I think I'm miscarrying, because that would be my assumption at this point. But I go in and. My numbers had been looking great though. My HCG had been doubling like it was supposed to. And I'm in the ultrasound, sitting there looking at the screen and they're like, it's a subchorionic hemorrhage. You're not miscarrying. And I was like, ⁓ what? Like, what are we talking about now? Meanwhile, I missed some things in there. Like I've had random procedures. I've had the Apollo removed. I've had like my tubes checked to make sure they're clear. Like this is all happened in the last like, I don't know, like six years or something at this point. ⁓ But it's like, here's a new curve ball. Like we're just gonna throw another one at you. And so what that is, is it's a bleed. It's a bleed right next to where the baby is attached to your uterus. there's, they don't even know why they happen. It's supposedly random. So supposedly random, but when my doctor went back and looked later, apparently I had one with my daughter, but like it was so small that it resolved itself. And so it was never even like on my radar with her for some reason. But this, and I never bled with her. So it was like, I didn't think about it. This, I was bleeding. Like so much that like, if you took like food coloring, put it in a big cup of water and you just poured it, that's what it would do. But then it would stop. It's like you would stand up and you would just hemorrhage and bright red blood. And then you'd have nothing for like. I don't know, an hour, two hours, and then whoosh, there it goes again. And so weird, so weird. So I'm talking to my doctor. I'm like, okay. She's like, sometimes they resolve on their own, sometimes they don't, sometimes people miscarry, sometimes they don't. It does not mean you're definitely miscarrying. And I was just like, ⁓ my gosh, this is insane. Like I have to like wait it out again and monitor. I said, okay, I'm supposed to play shows in Virginia. in like a few days, I stay, should we just cancel them? Should I stay home? Do I need to stay in bed? She's like, I cannot tell you to stay in bed. There is no evidence at all that that would change anything. Yeah. And I was like, So then I started thinking about it. I'm like, you know what? One of my childhood best friends lives in Virginia. I'm staying with her anyway. She's got three kids. What is it to just add one more to the equation? I'm going to go out there.

speaker-0: that's gonna happen.

speaker-1: Parker can play with her kids. I can just rest in between our shows. And I felt like I was going have more help there than I would here actually, because Dave was coaching Little League Baseball and all the things that like he had commitments and another kid that we were trying to take care of too. So I was like, I'm gone. So we go to Virginia and I'm hemorrhaging the whole time. It's like my friends, my duo partner would pick me up at my friend's house and I would just like lay in the chair in the car. and literally lay there until we got to the place where we were gonna play. I'd sit on the stool, play my song. She's like, I don't know, I guess she probably grabbed a stool too. We didn't usually sit, but I was like, I'm sitting. I'm sitting. And then right before the show, I'd be like hemorrhaging and I'd be so scared that I was gonna like bleed through my clothes. And then we'd take a break. I'd go to the bathroom and there was not a drop of blood. It's just like, it was one of the weirdest things ever. So anyway, I make it.

speaker-0: to if you've ever been on stage and like, it's enough to be on stage being looked at from every angle, especially below. ⁓ One time, this is unrelated, but one time I was touring and I don't know what happened, but I had been sick and then I... you know when you are not feeling well and you finally get an appetite again. So I did and I think it was like McDonald's. I was like, just want some sort of bread and I haven't had McDonald's in like a decade now, but this is back in the day. And we were in San Francisco. We're gonna play the American Music Hall, I think that night.

speaker-1: Nice.

speaker-0: And the next day we're gonna be at the Nokia theater, which is now I think the Microsoft theater. So like the bigger shows on the run, right? So of course, I'm just trying to channel you here. And so I am sitting there and you know, you like brighten your ⁓ like your teeth, you're kind of like fishing it out with your tongue. And I was like, the head of my label was with me and I was like, Mike, where's my tooth? he looked at- It literally had disintegrated at some point. so... Your tooth? My tooth! It's insane. What? And so I'm like, I'm gonna look like a hell belly from tennis.

speaker-1: my gosh, which, was it a front tooth? It was here. ⁓ my, okay, well that was lucky. Better. But still.

speaker-0: But the reason it popped into my brain is that I... Like, people are underneath you when you're on stage. And I sing really loud and high, and my mouth is far wide open as possible. for most of the time. And so I was like, what am I gonna do? And I had to do the shows that way. And I was like, this has just one more thing. So it's like...

speaker-1: My

speaker-0: I don't want to my mouth, but I can't make the same sound if I don't open my mouth. But I, what if I forget the words now? Like it like started to compound, you know, and I, no blood, but I was like, they're taking photos. The biggest shows.

speaker-1: I know. These are the things. It's crazy. mean, ours ended up being fine. It was just bizarre, but I definitely felt like fatigued and everything. The blood loss. Yeah. Crazy. I don't know. We make it through that weekend. I go back to Nashville and I was just like, I got to go in again to my doctor. Like, there was a lot of blood loss this weekend. I go in.

speaker-0: Well, you're losing a lot

speaker-1: She checks with the little Doppler, just to hear the heartbeat. She's like, it's still there. I was like, I mean, my baby's still there. I did not lose it yet. was like, okay, that's great. So another week or two goes by. I make it to like, I'm like 11 weeks at this point and counting the days, because in my head, 12 weeks was like the end of the first trimester. I think it's actually 13, but for whatever reason, I thought it was 12. So I'm like, I just gotta make it to 12 weeks. And Dave, of course, ⁓ we had this blood test between when I had Parker and when I had my next one. Like there were now a blood test at 10 weeks that you could like do to find out like if it had downs and also the gender and like all that stuff. we did the 10 week blood test. We found out it was a boy and Dave was like begging me to just start talking about names. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not doing it. Not yet. I can't do it. So we get down, we go down to our cabin again. for the weekend and I'm like, I don't know, 11 weeks, seven days, whatever, like right about to turn the corner to be, I'm like, fine, we can talk names. So we're sitting on the couch ⁓ after the kids had gone to bed and we're sitting there, we're coming out with names, we kind of come up with one and I was like, okay, I gotta go to bed and I like lean forward and I get off the couch and I hear this pop and I was just like, what? And I had stopped bleeding earlier that week. I was like, I think it's like, tapering off. I really might be coming. That's also why I was like, we can talk names. Cause I think this is like coming out the other side. And I get up and I go, I was like, ⁓ no, ⁓ no, ⁓ no. And I started just panicking and I get to the bathroom and there's not a drop of blood, but there was all this clear liquid. And I was like, ⁓ my God. I was like, I think my water just broke. Like if that's even possible at 12, you know, basically 12. I don't know.

speaker-0: It's good to have Ben as my co-

speaker-1: That's what I'm saying too, but when I told my doctor, she was like, no, your water can't break then. I'm thinking, why not? Why can't it? I'm telling you, my water broke. my water broke because I woke up the next morning, I cried myself to sleep because I just knew, I was like, this is not good. This is like, it's so weird that blood would have been more welcome at that moment than what I saw because I just knew. Like you do not have a viable baby until at least 22 or 23 weeks. Like, and that is like.

speaker-0: what it was.

speaker-1: Very, very, that's the possibility of being possible. It's not like, you know. So I was just crushed and I wake up the next morning in a complete puddle of blood, go to the ER. They don't show me the ultrasound screen again because it's the ER. So I'm sitting there for hours. I'm trying to get the tech to break protocol and tell me, I'm like hinting to her that I've had multiple miscarriages. ⁓ And I just, I told her the whole thing. I woke up in a pile of blood. I heard this pop. I'm just here to verify if I still have a baby that is alive or not. And she is just straight faced and all she gives me is, did you say you've had miscarriages before? And I was just like, ⁓ yes. Is that a hint? Like that's not what I really want to hear. But is that a hint? I don't know. I had to sit there for hours until somebody read the ultrasound screen, then came in and this doctor just like. eventually comes in and goes, did anyone talk to you yet? I'm by myself because Dave's got the kids somewhere else. Like I didn't want them coming in. They don't even know I'm pregnant yet. So I literally am just sitting there as poor doctor. Like you could just tell he, he didn't have a lot of experience like delivering this kind of news. I'm sure he's had to do hard things before, but I'm like literally this woman by herself sitting there and I was like, no, nobody talked to me. And he's just like, I'm so sorry. And I just, I just. It was like not sobbing in the way that I sobbed before, like for my first one, but like tears just start going. And he's like, do you have any questions? I was like, can you just tell me how far along it was? And he's like 12 weeks. I go to the day and he's like, yeah, to the day. And I was like, my little baby made it 12 weeks for me. Cause it's like, that was my new marker after the eight weeks, days. was like, I just need to get to the end. was like, you made it 12 weeks, but it's not anymore. So. That one was brutal. It was awful. I mean, I ended up having another DNC. ⁓ And yeah, I mean, it was really, really traumatic. And one of those where you're just starting to go, maybe I'm not supposed to be doing this. Like all the signs are pointing to no. But I wanted to try again, so we, we try again a months later.

speaker-0: If you didn't have one, I can see both was kind of like hard to like I know I body can do it. Why won't it do it?

speaker-1: I like I know. I know, I know. It's just one of those things I felt really healed by having my daughter, like the first two miscarriages. Not that they still don't hurt because I mean, I've made it through so far without crying, but there are days when I'll talk about it I'll still bawl thinking about the first one or the fifth one or whatever it is. mean, just, just, she did heal me as best that you can be healed. It had something to hold onto and you feel like you've made it. So then once I started miscarrying again, there was very much the sense of like, have to have just one more now. I have to now because it has to heal the damage that has been created again. I mean, again, maybe irrational, but it's just how it felt, you know? So we try again, get pregnant. She's like monitoring me like crazy this time. Like all the levels look great. It's right before Christmas, but she's like, the levels looked like so good that my numbers were like in the 5,000s right before Christmas. really fast and I was like, ⁓ my gosh, great. Okay. So she's like on six weeks to the day though, you need to be in here having an ultrasound because I still just want to make sure as at the most early possible, we want to make sure it's not ectopic. Well, I'd never had an ectopic before. So was like, it's probably not. But you know, I've had every other weird thing. So we go in and it was like at a different, it wasn't at my OB's office. It was a random ultrasound place and

speaker-0: Yeah

speaker-1: They fit me in supposedly on their schedule. show up and I'm not on the schedule. And so then I'm like freaking out because Dave's supposed to go out of town for something. And I was like, well, what I need to be seen. So we call my OB. They fit me in there, but we had to like wait extra time in the waiting room. We're waiting. They kind of fit me in between people. get in there and the ultrasound texts like, I don't see a baby in the uterus. And I was like, but my levels are like up there. She's like, I know. And it's like, I just know that. she's scroll, she's moving around and looking at an ovary and on my right ovary, there are all these like rainbows. And I was like, well, I learned when they ultrasound my leg, looking for a blood clot, rainbows mean blood flow. So I'm like, awesome. There's like all this blood flow around my right ovary. And she quickly gets it off the screen, like click, click, measure something, click, click, click, and then off. And she's like, You guys can go back to the waiting room and, but it's like, already knew I'm sitting there like in the waiting room, Googling, okay, ectopic pregnancy. Cause Dave is just like, what does this mean? What does this mean? I'm like, it means we now want to hear the words methotrexate, which means that it's not so bad that I have to have surgery. We want to hear that I can take this pill, which is a cancer drug that will kill all fast growing cells and a baby is a fast growing cluster of cells. it would kill it. And then hopefully. my body would just be able to do its thing and get rid of it. that's what happened. I got lucky. I took the method truck. I mean, weird. I'm telling you, like at this point I was just out of body because just months before I had that massive hemorrhage and that one was really, you know, looking good. And then this one, the numbers looked good. I was just so out of body. We're sitting there at like an IHOP right around the corner from the hospital, just like.

speaker-0: key.

speaker-1: waiting there because yeah, you've probably seen it. Yeah, because the doctor was like, I need you to do a blood test and all this stuff and then go get lunch with Dave and then come back and we'll, oh, and I also have a negative blood type. So that means that you also, every time you bleed, oh yeah, so you know all about the fun Rogam shot. So yeah, so you probably had it like partway through your pregnancy and then again, when you were delivering. I've had it every single time. I bled with a miscarriage and that thing freaking hurts like really bad. hurts really bad. And it's, you know, they give it in your butt. They give the methotrexate also in your butt. ⁓ and they told me methotrexate shot hurts. I will tell you, yes, it does, but the rogamm is still worse. It's just tough. So anyway, methotrexate weds out your immune system for like months.

speaker-0: hurts.

speaker-1: three months minimum. They won't even let you try. can't, there would be like birth defects or you wouldn't even get pregnant. It's just all that stuff. So during that time, I like actually felt free. Like you can't even try if you want to do port. So you gotta just chill. it was probably the most like chill I'd felt in a while. And I just started reflecting on everything. I was like, this is insanity. This is insanity. Like I didn't even know I wanted this so bad. And look at what I have spent my thirties on. Like Literally this dream I did not know I would ever dream. I'm now chasing it like more than anything. I'm working harder for this than I've ever worked for anything in my life. This is insane. And I thought I was supposed to be able to just do this when I wanted on my timeline. Like we're humans. We're supposed to just be able to have babies when we want to, right? Not, not true. So I start writing it all down because I'm just like, this is insane. So I start writing what is now a book I've been writing about the whole experience and ⁓ it just, I don't know, it was, you know, therapeutic and everything too. And I just really wanted my daughter to see what I went through to get her here someday, Just to know I really wanted her so badly, you know? And so we go through that. I start Clomid again and I'm like, you know, we'll give Clomid like one more shot, but I start thinking I would really like to try IVF. We've never done it. It's a lot, but. I'd really like to go there. And Dave is just like, ⁓ my gosh, why? And anyway, long story short, they threw a series of random coincidences and whatever you want to call it, serendipity, whatever. ⁓ just, I ended up finding like a ⁓ family friend, it's like a really top fertility doctor out in California. And she calls me that night, hears my whole story, like give her all the rundown and. I just felt so much better talking to her than I had going to the fertility clinic here in Nashville. So I was like, you know what? It was near my parents' house. I was like, I'm going to do that. If we are going to try IVF, I'm going to do it. Meanwhile, I was on clomid again, got pregnant, had another chemical pregnancy. And I was just like, OK, I'm done. I'm done trying. And my husband, meanwhile, says, I'm done too. Like, I'm really done. So you get one chance. You get one more shot. However you're going to do this, If it's IVF, we're doing it once. We're not doing it five times. Right. You know? And then we're hanging it up. We've got a boy, we've got a girl, we've got a good life. We've got to call it quits and start enjoying it at some time. know? I do too, but it's just so hard when you like...

speaker-0: Which I Get both sides, as what I should have said.

speaker-1: Yeah, no, I mean, like that is one of the hardest things is how do you know when to walk away? How do you live with it? All of that. And I know you've got friends that you are probably going to be interviewing on the podcast coming up or a friend in particular that can answer that question better than I can. But I did feel like when I went into the IVF thing, was, I told the doctor, I said, one shot, give me the works, like throw it all at me because we don't have time to be like, ⁓ well, if this one didn't take, we'll just try again with another one. It's not happening one time. Yeah, and honestly the whole all the years leading up to that were so stressful because I just felt like it was all in my control It was all up to me. I had to be doing something wrong or my body was doing something wrong or what whatever but with IVF I had not like I Had the thought of IVF years prior sounded like ⁓ my gosh, that's sound like so much work. There's no way I can't do that. But by this point I was like that sounds like

speaker-0: little different now. Yeah.

speaker-1: Like actually, you go ahead and hijack my body. You go ahead and tell my body what to do because it clearly cannot do something right. Just Yes. I literally wanted it so bad that I wasn't scared of the shots anymore. was not scared of anything. And I felt so relaxed for that whole process. I was doing acupuncture. My clinic ⁓ actually was in the same building as an acupuncture place and they worked with them frequently to send their clients over.

speaker-0: do it.

speaker-1: You would get acupuncture like right before the implantation and right after and stuff like that. I I just felt like, you know what, this is great because I had also gone down random rabbit holes through the years of like, you know, acupuncture and cranial sacral therapy and whatever else. And these things, whether they help or not, they did help me feel a little more relaxed in the moment. feel like anxiety would creep back in, but I just felt like, ⁓ I've reached a point where I have now a scientific IVF clinic. telling me I can also do acupuncture and they're working together. I was just like, you guys got this. Like, I'm just gonna do whatever you tell me to do. So I got lucky. mean, the IVF, it all worked for me on the first try. And my son is amazing. I did start hemorrhaging with him at 11 weeks. ⁓ I was on very, very big ⁓ blood thinners. I was on Lovenox, which was another shot. ⁓ But, and maybe that's what worked. Maybe it's that I wasn't stressed. Maybe it's a million things. Nobody will ever know because the doctor was like, I produced plenty of good embryos. So it doesn't really, some people they'll get all their embryos back and they're all genetically abnormal. And then that tells the doctor something, you know? But for us, it wasn't like that. had like one that was genetically abnormal, but it was just a fluke she thought. And all the rest were good. So it was like, okay. So I, to this day, don't know why. Like I will never have an answer probably as to why I kept losing them. They were all lost obviously in different ways. And that's just really hard to wrestle and come to terms with. But that's my story. I mean, it's just how it went. And I'm just gonna probably forever more be like wondering why and being so grateful for what I have and glad that I, I mean, I'm a much different person than I was going into the whole process. I'm more patient, I'm more like understanding, I'm more grateful. I mean, all the things. And I also still grieve the person I used to be because she was just very like gung-ho and let's do this and all this stuff. And now I'm just a little more tentative about a lot of things, I appreciate where I've been. But also I like to talk about it and I like to bring awareness to it because I just feel like we don't talk about it. I think it's great that you're doing the podcast for that reason and I'm through it now. So it's easier for me to talk about it. think then people going through it, you

speaker-0: Well, and that's the thing. This podcast is not really meant for someone, you know, it can, it depends on the person and the situation and how they feel about it. I have a lot of people who want to come on, but not yet, you know, and I'm like, yeah, I don't care. ⁓ think this, I think this story, ⁓ you know, like they're in, they're in the stage where they're like, things were not working out for three rounds of egg retrieval. And so then they had to do egg donor, but still just pregnant. So don't want to rock the boat because you've also had all these, it's not the same kind of loss, but it's lost just the same to think that your body may stop cooperating at any moment. so this platform is not so much meant to be for the people talking on it to be in the midst, but someone who's listening in the midst can get a lot from it because it's like, I haven't tried that or... hadn't thought about that. And it's not about, I feel like with your story, with your story, has, you've had so many twists and turns, like, again, a doozy of the doozies. Like, you've, you've like done everything, you know. And, and so I feel like that alone would be like, okay, if nothing else, if someone has gone through one tenth. They can still think, all right, something worked for her, you know?

speaker-1: And that is a good point.

speaker-0: The testament to also you trying, like you said, writing it all down for your daughter and now son, to say like, this is what I went through. And also it is cathartic to write about it. wrote my journal from that time just like for reference over here, but also so you don't forget because so in your head when you're in it and you can't, you can remember all the numbers, all the stats, all the things, but the minute that you're out of it,

speaker-1: It's a lot. done it.

speaker-0: Something that kind of washes away ⁓ some of the terrible, I thought the same way about divorce. I painstakingly wrote about stuff all the time because I needed to get it out of my system. wasn't, you know, for any other reason, I wasn't going to share it with the world. But then if, but then, you know, after everything has was all said and done and I had moved on and met Marcus, I could, I could only remember what I read and I was like, yeah. And that's great.

speaker-1: Great.

speaker-0: That is so great for your nervous system that it's not sticking in your brain. for the purposes of sharing, it is so great to know all the details and all the little quiet moments that you hope will pass while you're living them, but that someone else is now living that same moment. is exciting.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm. For those people also, just, don't wish my crazy story on anyone, but I also want to make the point that you don't have to go through what I went through. It's to feel grief and feel terrible about, mean, none of us deserve to go through any of it. mean, my point is grief is not a contest. It's not like my grief is bigger than your grief because I had miscarriages and you didn't. Infertility without, like your story, I think you said you. You just couldn't even get pregnant. That is its own kind of freak.

speaker-0: I just wanted the positive test.

speaker-1: I know, I know, and it's like, I get it. mean, because I had months where I couldn't even get the positive test too. And anyway, all of it is challenging when you want something this bad and it literally is something that is going to change the scope of what your entire future looks like. You are allowed to feel all the feelings and grieve the way you need to grieve and don't ever compare your story and be like, ⁓ well that person went through so much more. It's all awful. it's all, you know, the one thing I can say is that to your point of forgetting things a little bit afterwards. Like when you do get through it, it is, I mean, you're always gonna carry the grief with you. You're always gonna carry parts of it and it's gonna permanently change you, but you're not gonna feel it to that depth every day of your life going forward. It will become a distant memory. Like the more memories I have with my kids now and just the more time that goes by, it's like, to your point too, I wrote down the IVF stuff as I was going through it because that was,

speaker-0: died.

speaker-1: way too much to remember. mean, I can loosely remember my timeline of losses and stuff, but I can't remember what drugs I was on or, you know, how many days I did shots until I look back at the pages. That's how it should be. We should be able to move on and heal and stuff like that. And it's not moving on. You're moving on with, while carrying all of this with you, but you're not living in that constant state anymore of fight or flight, survival mode, all of it. You know,

speaker-0: If I could say anything to anyone out there who has any type of connection to Courtney's story, I realize that we're not all writers. Like you and I are, that makes sense, like how we process and everything like that. But if you are, ⁓ even if you're going through something that's really difficult and you're having a hard time talking to other people in your life and getting the words out, in a way that you think either they will understand or that, ⁓ you just can't, like I'm doing right now, can't really form a sentence. Can't really put it into words. Even if you're not a writer, like you don't love writing, it doesn't make you feel better. I still highly recommend it during some of these hard and challenging times because processing how you're feeling Like the way that Courtney has described it this whole time, it's like there's so much going on at the same time. And by the way, you had a life that whole time too. You had to living. You were actually a stepmom first, you know, before Parker, and then you have Parker. But all of this is going on in the background, not the background, the forefront, but you're also living a full life, dealing with things, custody, ⁓ finances, going to the cabin. Those are just things that you're having to do all along this. It's not like your full-time job was trying to get pregnant and stay pregnant. Right.

speaker-1: It felt like it. But you're not able to just like publicize that to the world all the time. Correct. can't just forward-facing part of life. Right. Exactly.

speaker-0: So if, you know, and sometimes with your partner during all of this, I can attest, like you do feel other, you feel separated during some of this because you're going through different experiences with the same thing and you're coming at it from a different place. I'm going to have Marcus on to talk about that actually, ⁓ because I think it's a really big deal. And I think more people, like while we were going through our stuff, he was like, I understand why people get divorced during. challenges like that. so, okay, so you have a partner, or maybe you don't, I don't know. But if you don't have someone you can talk to about things in a way that will actually give you any relief and like letting it out, writing in a journal that no one's ever gonna see, ever, ever, ever, because it's up to you to share. That can be... Just such a help because you can write letter. I started writing letters to Little Blue, actually. The day before I went up for my work up in 2022 for IBF. And obviously I didn't know where this was gonna go. Now it's really cool that I have all the, and I continued. It's just a journal to our journal. And I tell them real things that are happening or whatever. But I found that writing to somebody.

speaker-1: ⁓ it's so much easier.

speaker-0: You just are able, especially when you know that person's not gonna read it. now. But I thought, okay, I'm just gonna go ahead and start writing to whatever this could be. And I didn't know if it was gonna be boy or a girl or if it was ever gonna turn into anything. And I thought, if it doesn't, I could throw it away. It doesn't matter. But there was something so helpful. Because it was like a pursuit. I felt like I was writing to something, not... to something. I wasn't just letting things out. I was actually channeling it somewhere. that's the only thing I would recommend if you're going through the ups and the downs. No, it's not the only thing I'd recommend. It's one of the things I'd recommend. that really did help me. ⁓ And again, now I have something to show my son because I went through the ups and the downs. It took forever. It took another ⁓ year and a half before I even got started on IVF. So you know, just saying like, I don't know, I don't know. It's a bunch of I don't know. Right. But now, like you said, you're writing about your thing. I wrote all this stuff to Archer and he's going to be able to see how I felt the entire time in real time. And there's something really special about that because you're remembering it correctly because you're writing it down in real time. And so that's just one thing I would recommend to anyone who's going through it. And especially if there is a difficulty communicating how you're.

speaker-1: There are there are, ⁓ I mean, I hate even saying this, but there are support groups, which I, I mean, at the time I would not have been up for that. would have been like, I don't want to be part of, I don't want to be in this club. I don't want to be part of this. Why do I want to go be around other people that are, I don't know. But I do think that at some point there is, I didn't even know they existed is my point. So I'm mentioning it just because Resolve, go to resolve.org. They have a lot of really great. resources on there. I'm obviously interacting with them as an advocate to try to make life easier for those coming after me. But for those in it now, they have great resources and I highly recommend just checking that out.

speaker-0: Yeah, that's so good. And then I'm actually talking to a girl, not for the pod, this weekend. She is a local and she got connected to me by the guy at the animal shelter, which is where I'm at. Yeah. And he was like, she went through IVF and she was like, I haven't talked to anyone about IVF and she just had, think a something. I don't know if it was a transfer or a retrieval, but finding someone who's gone through it.

speaker-1: Cut.

speaker-0: who you don't really know is kind of nice. Yeah, it's like they don't know all the ins and outs. you can talk freely about like if you're having, if you're in the midst of a partner dispute about something, it's not going to be like, well, it's...

speaker-1: Yeah,

speaker-0: Just somebody, so I mean, I'm happy to be that person for somebody out there.

speaker-1: Same, same.

speaker-0: if you need to talk to somebody, even if it's just over like Instagram message. Like sometimes it's just easier to talk to someone about it. And again, that's why this podcast exists. So that if you're in the moment where you're like, I don't want to talk to anybody, I'm not writing, she's an idiot. Right. I'm not going to go to any dang support group, like whatever. At least you can listen to this while you're driving.

speaker-1: right Right, listen to this and also, yeah, listen to this and come find me on Substack at the life I fought for, because that's the kind of community I am trying to build there. And I mean, this is what set my life on a completely new trajectory is infertility. But I'm trying to make a group where like anyone whose life has been rerouted by whatever it is, whether it's cancer or whatever, where your life did not go according to the plan that you thought it was going to go to. all gather at the life I fought for on Substack. But it's gonna have personal stories from my perspective, obviously. So it's gonna be laced with infertility and pregnancy loss stories and just how you get through and like, is it that keeps you going? And ⁓ I don't know, just maybe if you read words or hear the podcasts of other people that have been there, can just be, you know, a vision of someone that's been there and made it through. It just helps you keep.

speaker-0: It fortifies you a little bit to know I had those people throughout the whole thing and They had gone just a little before me, you know Like those are actually the most helpful the ones that were like not like literally right before I had my baby Yeah, their baby but like they weren't it wasn't like 30 years ago, know, right? I still find those stories very fascinating. Don't get me wrong but somebody who has in the same drug realm, like, because the drug came out at this time or this particular approach is not outdated, you know. Those things help. Just like having a, like you said earlier, just having someone who's going through the postpartum together in the moment, there's something very, very helpful about that. All right, well, so the thing that I keep hearing, is, you know, okay, so when you're talking in the car, you're like, I'll give you a short version. And then we talked for, I don't know how many hours collectively. ⁓ But that's the thing. I don't need the short version. This is gonna be a longer episode. I already know because your story's longer. And who wants a story that's truncated, really? Like if you're really going through this, you need to know the twists and turns, the ups and the downs, every single one. And it not be... Distilled down into something that was like well it was hard, but then I had a baby, but then it was hard You know like that is that is you know Reader's Digest versions Don't actually give you when you're in the midst of it You want to know all of it because you want to know anything that you've gone through is similar So no, I say no to the versions

speaker-1: Right. Right. Okay, good. Yeah, I know. Originally my plan was like, I'll just tell you, I've been pregnant eight times. Blows my mind. I miscarried six, you know? I have two healthy babies. And then you can go through the list and just see like all the things that looks like insanity, but it's also insanity when you play the long version. So there you go.

speaker-0: And you know, if you were to write it in a paragraph, wouldn't feel the same way. Like writing is great. Obviously, I'm a huge fan of writing. But there's something about hearing you tell the story and giving the, like even just the little tangents here and there to show the pepper in the actual life that you were living at the same time. I didn't really want my children to come in because they didn't know I was pregnant. That's a detail that you had to deal with in those moments. ⁓ And so I think that's why this form. I feel like can be helpful, not just to you to tell, but also for someone in the midst and the thick and someone who feels like I may be the only person who's ever, no, probably Courtney went through it. ⁓

speaker-1: I am still hearing about things that I never went through and my mind is continuously blown. I'm just like, that's a thing. thing. thing. thing. thing. That thing. thing. That That That That thing. thing.

speaker-0: So let's move on to hot potato. And I'll explain what it is for anyone who does not know. Hot potato is, don't, haven't gotten my full like spiel on this cause every single time it's a little different, but it's really, it's, can be whatever makes sense to you when I say the next phrases. If it's something awkward that someone said to you, can be something that was like, ⁓ advice, unsolicited advice, or an offhand comment that someone said not really thinking it through.

speaker-1: I mean, I was the stepmom first, so I get married and then, you know, people don't know that a year and I had the miscarriage and then another one. So I did have other moms at school functions for my stepson that would be like, ⁓ are you and Dave gonna have more kids or is just little David gonna be it for you? And it's like, yeah, someday. And then it'll be, ⁓ I bet you're still just enjoying the honeymoon phase. And it's like, yeah. So I had things like that, but I mean, those are minor. They're kind of like, they still... gut punch you, you know, when you're in it. ⁓ But I did have a pretty big one. ⁓ This is not to throw shade on my friends, but I had a group of friends that were pretty much my life during, like my light and my, me going through this period of time. I didn't even talk to them all about all the details, but it was more like we were the stepmom club. We all were stepmoms first. Then they all got pregnant around the same time, but I got married after them, so it's like our timeline was not gonna line up. I wasn't trying anyway. But they all had kids around the same age and we would go to breakfast once a month, I think. Or, I think it once a month, not once a week. But maybe it was once, I don't know, whatever it was. I looked forward to this like you don't know because I got to just like not think about my stuff for little while. I got to watch their little toddlers throw their food everywhere and we would catch up on other things in life and it was like, it was just really good for me. I looked forward to not. thinking about my fertility stuff and ⁓ just being a girl, you know, with my friends. So I show up this one morning and we were at Noshville, which I know you know Noshville. there, I was like, where are they? And I can't find them. there was like a, there's like a little room that is like usually a private room, but they were overflowing. The restaurant was so busy that they had stuck them in this room with their high chairs and all the stuff, probably because. We were kind of like a mess as a group because they got the babies. So their kids are in there, they're in there, and I walk in and there's a different person in there besides our usual group. There's another girl. And I knew her. We were like loosely friends, not like tight friends, but I always liked her. But first of all, first gut punch. I didn't know she was going to be there and she is like eight months pregnant. So I'm just like, ⁓ it's like one of those things where like every stroller baby, pregnant person, everything, you know, when you're wanting it so badly, especially if you've lost one and you start seeing women that are as far along as you should have been. So this is like, I had had two miscarriages, I did not have my daughter yet, ⁓ and I see this girl and I'm just like, okay, this is not, this is gonna be hard, but I'm like, it's okay. I was like, ⁓ hey, it's so great to see you. We sit down and very quickly, it becomes apparent that the reason she's there is to talk to my friends about their birthing stories. because she's about to have her first baby and she wants to hear all about it. And my friends had not told me that this other person was going to be there.

speaker-0: Maybe you to come that day.

speaker-1: Right, exactly. And all I can say is it was one particular friend that invited her and she just, I mean, it's not, it's enough my own fault too, not just on her. Like she didn't probably know I'd had the chemical pregnancy. I don't think I'd told her that one. She probably knew, I'm sure she knew I had the first miscarriage, but I had told her details. Like one of the friends in the group knew all the details. The other one there probably didn't really know everything. ⁓ But it was just one of those things where like the second they start talking about it, I am sitting there just like stunned and I just start, I feel like a tear up. And then the poor girl, the poor pregnant girl is like, I'm so sorry. I didn't know. And I was like, you weren't, you could not have known. And then one of my other friends calls me after and she's like, ⁓ my gosh, I'm so sorry. I thought such and such told you she was coming. And I was like, no, she didn't. And then the pregnant girl calls me on the way home and she's like,

speaker-0: Good news.

speaker-1: I feel terrible. was like, I'm sorry. And it was like the first time of many through the years where I felt it just sucked all around because I felt like I was stealing joy from someone else's moment. And I also just felt like, could you not have just let me off the hook and just told me not to come today? Like, you know, from the other side and it just, it just stinks. It's just a, it sucks for everybody. You know, I mean, it's how it is. But anyway, so if you have friends, my two cents takeaway is like, If you have friends that you know have gone through it, just try, try, try, try to think of them. If there's going to be a situation like that and just give them a heads up, leave it in their court, whether they want to and be president or not. like handle it. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And maybe I would have. I just like, I could have mentally prepared. It was just so like out of left field that I was like, wait, what, what is happening right now? And I just wanted to throw up and I wanted to cry and I just felt mean. And it was like all the feelings that you just.

speaker-0: Yeah, I still want to

speaker-1: It just sucks, you know? And that was supposed to be my light. The one thing I let my safe place of not thinking about it for the month. don't know. Anyway, so that was my first. That's my hot potato that I can think of.

speaker-0: potatoes are so, so not ⁓ malicious. They're not intentional. And yeah, it's just, that's a good, that's a good reminder that you, you know, just, ⁓ when you have someone on, on that also makes me think, okay, ⁓ do I need to let more people know what's going on so that they can work around that thought? You know, and I'm not saying you should have done one thing or the other. But if people don't know, can't, you know. Yeah.

speaker-1: Well, it goes back to the whole thing where you feel like you are failing as a human. You feel like there's this shame around it a little bit because you feel like you're failing at something that you're just supposed to be able to do.

speaker-0: And that everyone else needs to be able to be able to do. ⁓ You see it everywhere, it looks easy, even though it's probably not. Or there's more to the story.

speaker-1: Like, You don't want to be the downer all the time. You don't want to be the downer. And I was just like, And so that's why that scene was like my moment where like they knew, but they didn't know deeply because I didn't want it. I don't want to be the downer. didn't want it to, I wanted it to be the moment in the month where I knew it was going to be safe to not talk about it not worry about it. So that is on me, like for not telling all of them how my emotional state was continuing to be months after my miscarriages, but also.

speaker-0: ⁓ But you didn't do anything!

speaker-1: Park it in your brain. No, I didn't. I just wish it like...

speaker-0: It was on me, but like, it's, I feel like this whole fertility thing or post abort, you know, whatever you've gone through, it's a big thing. There's no right way to do it. I think you have to get really, really comfortable being uncomfortable, obviously physically, emotionally, all the things you're going to be pregnant anyway. Hopefully that's like the, if that's your goal, uh, that's not going to be a piece of cake. And then you're going to have postpartum and that's not going to be a piece of cake. get used to that.

speaker-1: Right.

speaker-0: If I could offer anything to someone who's in the seesaw mode of where things may be going right, but then they don't go right, find one person to talk to about it. know, somebody, an anchor, you know, if that's a parent, if that's a sibling, if that's your partner, ⁓ you know, somebody who can kind of help stabilize the seesaw because that will at least give you like, I think the ability when someone else can hold things steady just a little bit and maybe it's not your partner. Maybe it is someone who's outside of ⁓ the regular circle. So maybe it's that and that's okay. But what that can do for you maybe if like if you're really, really lucky is help you get used to your story so that you can maybe take chances and tell some people who are close to you who are trustworthy with that information. But if you're holding things, Constantly and you're trying to write your own ship. I'm using a lot of metaphors. Sorry. You're doing great

speaker-1: The seesaw sinks, like, and the train leaves the station again, like, we're good. Yeah.

speaker-0: You're welcome everyone listening I'm leaving that in there ⁓ If your seesaw is going back and forth if you don't have any any stability It's really hard to get comfortable with yes what you're going through and yeah, it's gonna be uncomfortable regardless but being able to speak it to some people some person and ⁓ and Maybe that could have helped in that situation. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not

speaker-1: I love it.

speaker-0: I'm not trying to go back in your history.

speaker-1: No, it's true. But yeah, I mean, was just one of those, it was just kind of unfortunate all around. And it's just kind of like, look at my scene and maybe if you take anything from it, realize that we all need to just try to think, take care of each other and think about where the other person is and things like that. I don't know.

speaker-0: sounds like they were like, ⁓ you know, just super apologetic, especially like no one wants anyone to feel that way. And that's like, that's the good motherhood, womanhood thing is like no one usually is trying to hurt your feelings unless they don't know you and they just say things to you. ⁓ Right. sister, if you've not listened to my sister's, ⁓ it's, I think it's the second episode. it's Maddie's name is her name. Okay. Anyone out there listen to the hot potato section on that one.

speaker-1: Right.

speaker-0: She got some weird stuff thrown at her for it. ⁓ yeah. Bad, bad, Okay. So that said, is there anything else that you want to add? You kind of give an advice throughout. Sometimes I am there, but I feel like you really hit every.

speaker-1: real I mean you got if you guys have questions at all like please reach out to Ashlyn reach out to me like whatever I ⁓

speaker-0: I mean, notes, your sub stack, eventually your memoir. I'll come back and retroactively change it and post about it. And yeah, I'm so thankful that you're willing to talk to me about it. I'm so thankful for Nellie for connecting us and saying she's a good person to have on. Cause you have a story. And like you said, it is not about like the competition of who has it worse. When you're in it, it doesn't matter. your loss is your loss, your ups to your ups and your downs to your downs. You feel the same way. Maybe it's not as ⁓ long winded as your journey, but in the moment it hurts all the same. And I am so grateful that you were willing to tell all the details, even just like the blood, like that stuff I think needs to be talked about. wasn't gonna, I'm not editing that out. mean, things are grotesque during this.

speaker-1: It is, I'm, no.

speaker-0: And you feel like you're psycho because it just feels that way. So thank you. Thank you so much Courtney Dash for coming on. you

speaker-1: for doing this. I mean, I think this is gonna help a lot of people, so I appreciate it. I wish I had had it back then.

speaker-0: Me too. Me too. ⁓ And so yes, Courtney said this, but I'll reiterate. If you have a question for either of us, I will put all of our information in the show notes. ⁓ And if you have a fertility story or if we haven't talked about something on this show that you are experiencing and you want somebody to talk about it, ⁓ maybe I can find someone in my life or maybe you can come on. I don't know. Whatever the case is, reach out to us. You are not going through this alone. At least you don't have to. ⁓ And next week, we'll back again. And until then, take care.