Episode 7: A Case For Acupuncture with Alex Leddy

speaker-0: Hi everyone and welcome back to Confessions of a Slow Cooker. I'm Ashlyn Blue and today I want to introduce you to someone very important to me during my own fertility journey. Alex Letty is an acupuncturist here in the Roaring Fork Valley in Colorado. When I was told by my fertility clinic in Denver that I needed a specific acupuncture protocol around my embryo transfer, I realized I needed someone here locally. And that was going to be done in the lead up to the procedure, the embryo transfer. Alex was very well versed in the protocol. So I just started to go to her for regular appointments throughout IBF. And I was there a lot. So we became friends over time, talking about fertility and life and stuff like that. And she's actually who I originally tapped to be the co-author for this book version of the podcast. And we can talk about that later. Anyway, hi Alex. Thanks for being here.

speaker-1: Hi, Ashlyn. Thanks for having me.

speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. ⁓ It's about time. As we discussed before we started taping, as we discussed before the taping, you're going to talk about acupuncture, obviously, but also a little bit about your own fertility journey. And I'm going to let you decide which one you want to start with.

speaker-1: We can start with the acupuncture first. Okay. So, mean, gosh, where do I even start? ⁓ think that acupuncture is, you know, I think that there are a lot of people who do realize that acupuncture is helpful for fertility. And then I think that there are a lot of people who have no idea that it is very helpful for fertility. Just to put that out there, I think a lot of people think that acupuncture is helpful for pain mostly, which it is, ⁓ but acupuncture has lots of other things that it can address. I I typically say acupuncture can help with anything except emergency medicine, but ⁓ fertility is high up there. I would say that I see a lot of fertility patients, both men and women. ⁓ probably more women just because women tend to seek out alternative, care and practices more than men do just in general. But I've seen men for acupuncture as well and also done, ⁓ given herbs for, for help with fertility. So, you know, there's lots of different kinds of layers and levels that acupuncture can help with. And it really depends on where someone is along their journey with fertility. ⁓ There are those people who come in in the very beginning because they've always done acupuncture. They know that it can help their body stay in balance. And then they just want to add that they are going to try to get pregnant. ⁓ So they're kind of already in that rhythm. Then there are people who specifically just want to come in only to get pregnant. And then we work with them with their cycles and try to have all treatments correspond with where they are in their cycles. ⁓ As more time goes by, if people are not getting pregnant, then we can add in herbs that kind of correspond with where they are in their cycles. And what I mean by that is, you know, we try to line up treatments with when they've had their period, then when they're about to ovulate, usually one or two treatments, and then after they ovulate, one treatment. So it's usually like three to four treatments a month. And we base that on the first day of their period. because we're trying to do different things that our Chinese medicine speak. after the period, we're trying to tonify blood. Prior to ovulation, we're trying to switch the cycle from a more yin, more estrogen, more yin in the beginning, to more yang, more progesterone afterwards, which all comes down to yin and yang. I'm probably jumping ahead a little too much. Essentially, we're trying to have the acupuncture correlate with where they are in their cycles and trying to generate the chi and energy and hormones that we're trying to assist with. ⁓ Then if we need to add herbs later, we can do that. Then if people get into IVF, which we can talk more about, there's a whole protocol for that as well. Then also when people, after they've had ⁓ a transfer or after they are pregnant, there's other acupuncture along the way the whole time that you're pregnant and even labor induction and all of that. So it can be useful kind of throughout the entire journey.

speaker-0: I can concur. ⁓ So I was kind of of the mind. Okay, so I started Acupuncture with you before the IVF process, but there was like a gap because we thought we were going to start IVF. We didn't because we were waiting on Marcus's stuff to regulate so we could actually get on the calendar. And so I did, and this is more like, okay, I grew up in the South where Chinese medicine is nearly, like you're a certain type of person if you go, you know? Whereas when I moved to Colorado, it's like just a regular part of the thing. It's not woo woo. It's like, no, this is really good. It's a whole body experience thing. And it's not to say you can't have the Western medicine. It's just something to add. I think I did acupuncture back during my touring days, ⁓ and it was mostly about sinuses, because I had such bad, I had surgeries, but it was affecting the way that I sounded, which was my whole job. And so I went and I think I went once on tour or something like that, or in some in-between tour ⁓ dates. And my misconception of acupuncture, I keep on thinking of acupressure in my mind and I did not mean to. I think my parents were talking about that yesterday and that is in my head. So if I stumble, that's what's going on. My misconception of acupuncture was the need to do it like you do workouts. You need to do them on a regular basis. You can do more intense ones, more intensity if you're like training for something. ⁓ you know, or like for in this instance, it needs to be something that we did around the embryo transfer or around the cycle. But it works best if I'm correct, if it is more regular than not. Yeah.

speaker-1: Yes. I mean, typically when people come in for something like pain, ⁓ know, it really, it's like usually takes a few treatments before the pain is gone. Usually, sometimes people will come one time and we can fix the problem, but I would say that that's way more rare. And to set people's expectations, it's kind of like similar to a PT journey, physical therapy, where if you have a surgery or you have an injury, you're coming to see a physical therapist, you know, one to two times per week for an extended period of time until that injury or post surgery is healed or recovered. And so there's that kind of approach where you're working on something more acute or more specific, but certainly then you have a lot more treatments closer together to achieve quicker healing. But general wellbeing, it's like, it is similar to what you're saying where it's like going to the gym or going to your mental health therapist. Really anything that's keeping your body in alignment is really healthy to come on a more regular basis. What that looks like is different for all people. Some people like to come once a week. If they have, you know, high stress, high anxiety jobs, and this really helps them stay grounded. Some people come every once a month just to keep on top of regular care, but something like fertility, you know, again, as I mentioned, sometimes we have people who have been coming to acupuncture. So it just becomes a different focus. You know, it becomes part of their overall wellbeing. But if they're coming specifically for fertility and they've never come before and they want to focus only on that, it becomes, you know, at least my approach is to be more specific in line with their cycle. So it really is like, we need to do one after your period. We need to do one or two before you ovulate. We need to do one after you ovulate. And really that helps because of the points that we pick, the energy that we're trying to generate helps balance the hormones. ⁓ And so that regimen can be more intensive. Sometimes I have patients who only want to come or only are able to come twice a month. So we try to pick days that make the most sense. If someone has a longer... a follicular phase and a short or luteal phase. We adjust appointments accordingly because ideally we want the cycle to be 28 days, you're ovulating at 14 days. And we can very much influence when that is happening and how that's happening. Some women are not ovulating at all, so we can influence that. ⁓ And sometimes when people are at the point of being very stressed, which often happens. A lot of times when people do come in, they've been trying for quite a while. And so there is an element of high stress involved. So we're trying to regulate their stress and get them out of fight or flight mode, because certainly you're not, your body has a harder time getting pregnant if you're in fight or flight mode. ⁓ And then IVF is another very specific protocol that's kind of, you know, that's intensive for four weeks leading up to transfer. ⁓ the protocol is different if you're leading up to, ⁓ a retrieval, but the transfer is twice a week, you know, for an hour and a half with eSTEM, four weeks leading up to your transfer, which is pretty intensive. So that's very specific. And Ashlyn, Ashlyn knows that very well. And you did two transfers and yeah, we get to spend a lot of time together, which is great. ⁓

speaker-0: for. And I did two transfers.

speaker-1: But yeah, so there's all different levels and layers. And then the herb component is separate. Herbs are not usually involved with IVF because they like to control, you know, all the hormones and they don't like herbs to be added. But prior to IVF, herbs are a whole nother component that can be added to help with fertility.

speaker-0: Yeah. So let's talk about the IVF stuff, eSTEM. ⁓ I was there so often because I went throughout, like I said, the whole IVF journey starting before the retrieval, before all that. I think I said it on my... the second episode of the mini-series on the ABCs of IVF, so just the process for those of you who have not heard it. ⁓ But I encourage you to if you are contemplating IVF or if you're in it, because it is, I went through every single detail that I could have ⁓ of the journey and I talked about the acupuncture piece, just not in this way, because I knew we were gonna have an actual episode with Alex, but ⁓ one of the things that I've I remember is that my, I've been going to you, think we discovered it was like in January of 2023 and I ended up doing my retrieval in April and I had to get a, what are those called? I can't think of the word, Alex. What is wrong with me? You had to get a blood draw? Well, no, I had to go get, at the OBGYN, I had to get...

speaker-1: Cap smear? Yes!

speaker-0: You know what was coming through my head? Pepsid. That wasn't right. Okay. Wow. I'm very tired.

speaker-1: Mary, I a toddler. I know, I hear you.

speaker-0: ⁓ And so I had to get a pap smear and I had it planned. It was around my cycle. My cycle was so just like normal, not necessarily good, but it was always at the same time every single month. And I had been going to you for a couple of weeks at this point and all of a sudden my cycle is early. And I remember calling you and being like, is this possible that you did this? You know, and you're like, yeah. And so it was so interesting. That was my cue to realize how like regular appointments would actually make a difference. And so that really propelled me to be more considerate of adding that in the entire time because I saw what it did to my body in just a few short weeks. And it was like, it was kind of like witchy. was like, how, speaking of which. Alex knows the password, I don't know if you remember it, but knew the password to my phone because after every single time she would put all the needles in, of course I can't move, I've got needles, so she would open my phone and go to my Prime Video app and turn on Harry Potter for me because that's what would make me relax like a normal, well then 37 year old.

speaker-1: Yes.

speaker-0: feel like, thank you for doing that, by the way, but that's something I bring up in Jess, but also like, there was, what was not going to make me chill out for however long I was sitting there was listening to spa music that was on a loop, not because the music was bad, but because my particular brain will focus on something and kind of get like in the weeds about it. And so I was like, can I play a Harry Potter instead? Obviously you said yes, you turned the music off, but that to me, the reason I say it is to say, find different ways for you to relax. You've got to sit there, you've got to be still, and for it to work, you really want to be able to not be thinking about your to-do list or thinking about where you've got to go or thinking about your relationships or any of those things. You really want to be able to chill out. if you need to supplementally bring something in for that to happen, I feel like that really helped me. It also made me look forward to it too, because I was like, get to listen to one of seven movies. anyway, so that was just something that I never considered until I was there so often. was like, I do this every time.

speaker-1: Yeah, what can I do? Well, and you know, it's like, thank you for, you know, mentioning that. I will say Ashlyn was a very good patient, everybody. Ashlyn was super disciplined and came all the time. And, you know, I think that that's really huge because, you know, it's like we as acupuncturists or any, any doctor can only help as much as someone will put in the work themselves. Like you're only here for an hour and a half. once a week or twice a week or whatever it is, but outside of where you, you know, what you're doing outside of being here and then your discipline with whether it's the herbs or showing up and all of that, like that's, that's up to the patient. And so it's great to work with people who really do do the work, come to the appointments and are really dedicated and disciplined. And I do think that that makes a big difference. Like anything it's like, if you're going to go to the gym, you have to go to the gym. ⁓ You can't just go once a month and then expect things to miraculously be different. And to Ashlyn's point, you know, it's like for her to get into a state of relaxation, it was like important to, she wanted to listen to Harry Potter. I also love Harry Potter. And so I think we made it through all of the movies like a couple of times. Like I think it started over and we started at, you know, movie number one. But it was great.

speaker-0: One time you said, ⁓ I love this one. I have other patients

speaker-1: stay in here and watch this or listen to this as well. But really it is important any you know, some people do get so relaxed that they don't need anything like they go to another zone. But if you find you're not able to relax, it is just like however you can get into a relaxed space. And I would say that outside of acupuncture too, when you're trying to get pregnant. It's those self care things that help you with your relaxation and your nervous system. whether it's going for a walk, your own meditation, yoga, exercise, things that make you feel good because it is a stressful thing. And again, if your body's in fight or flight mode, your body doesn't think that it can carry a baby. So important to do that.

speaker-0: I think that's such a good thing to reinforce. If your body does not, no, if your body is in fight or flight mode, it does not think it can carry a baby. No. I wish you'd, you've never told me that. Thanks.

speaker-1: ⁓ well, yeah. I mean, when I when I tell people, it's like, when you think about fight or flight mode, it's like, you're either getting ready to fight the saber tooth tiger, or you're getting ready to flee from the saber tooth tiger, your body is responding in that way, whatever needs to happen to run or to fight back to the death, whatever that looks like. So your body does not think like ⁓ we're, you know, we can carry a baby. That makes sense right now. Your body absolutely thinks you cannot carry a baby because you have to fight for your life. ⁓ and the nervous system in this day, modern age, I mean, we're obviously not fighting up a Cypertooth tiger, but we might as well. mean, there are so many stresses, but that's the realm that a lot of people are operating in. Their nervous systems are so high strung that they absolutely, they cannot get pregnant because of that. That's one of. The big reason that acupuncture can help is calming all of that down in addition to influencing the hormones.

speaker-0: That is such a good point. And by the way, I am joking with you that you didn't tell me that because it ultimately ended up, it ended up not being about just me. It was also the component that Marcus had that I've mentioned on the podcast already. that would not necessarily have done anything for me ⁓ ultimately. but okay, so that actually leads me to when people say relax, like you gave just now, You gave like a legit scientific reason for what that relaxation will do to your body. But when other people say, you know, just relax, it'll happen. To me, that is just like, on. Because you don't know it. First of all, you don't know their story. You don't know what is going on in their lives. You don't know if there is a component like mine where it's your partner. And also when... Has it ever worked for anyone to say, relax, and you're like, ugh, thanks. Now I am relaxed, thank you, or chill, okay, sure, you're right. Like no, it like does the opposite. It makes you feel like something's wrong or you're defective. And so I like what you said because that says, that says it's a little bit more strategic.

speaker-1: Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, it would be interesting at some point to like talk about the things that are really difficult for people to hear who are trying to get pregnant, like things that maybe are not helpful to say when you're trying to be supportive of people in the, you know, the fertility process. But certainly one of those things is relax because I don't think that that is helpful. people, just, the way that that comes across can be very, um, Yeah, not taking into account the whole picture. But to your point, is, I mean, when we're looking at just biology and it really is a nervous system thing ⁓ to try to literally get your nervous system to calm down. But that's not a simple thing either to be like, relax. Okay, now I'm relaxed. Like it doesn't work though. But that's where it's important to have all these things that help aid in relaxation. And acupuncture is one of them, but there's all sorts of things that people can do to try to bring that heightened nervous system down. Some people are really anxious in general, but I do find that, ⁓ yeah, and I'm an anxious person ⁓ in general. But I find that people trying to get pregnant, especially the longer that it's been, it is very anxiety producing and very stressful. And IVF is another element because... You know, there's a lot of money on the line. It's very expensive. You're driving to and from Denver. In our case, there's a lot of time and energy. There's a lot of hormones. It's a really huge commitment. And so it is very stressful. So having those things that can help support and surrounding yourself with people who are supportive and not stressing you out more and, know, certainly acupuncture can help with bringing that. anxiety down along that road, but it is a very stressful process. ⁓ There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. So yeah, saying to somebody relaxes.

speaker-0: Not helpful. No. ⁓ And that brings me also, you mentioned the expense of IVF. ⁓ And acupuncture is expensive as well. Just like going to any specialist or anything like that. But I think it's worth mentioning that if you're going to go down the, and this is my take, this is not necessarily like fact, this is just my experience.

speaker-1: Totally.

speaker-0: When I decided to do more acupuncture with you the whole time, I knew it was going to be a lot of money that I spent. also knew I was spending a lot of money for the IVF itself. ⁓ And that might seem like, like you're already doing, you're doing intervention stuff. So why wouldn't you, why would you just, you know, compound the, the price tag? And my thought process and my husband's thought process was why wouldn't I give myself the best shot for this to work? If it's already really, really expensive, what's a couple more thousand dollars? I would rather not have to do all of it over again and do a second if I got very, very lucky with my body that I only had to do one retrieval and I did two transfers and those were both expensive to do. However, I didn't have to go back to the retrieval stage and start all over. I don't know if it's because of the acupuncture. I'm not sure. you don't know that it's not gonna help you either. And so we made that calculation and decided, all right, let's throw everything at this trying to get pregnant thing because we've already exhausted every other option. And so just something to consider. If you're like, no, it's too expensive, it's too whatever. If you're paying the money for IVF, it is worth it in my opinion to go ahead and add in a lot of extra. in the, by the way of acupuncture along the way.

speaker-1: And I, you know, of course agree with that. Um, you know, I was talking with a patient the other day who's not a fertility patient, but she was in a stage of just being so overwhelmed by all of the appointments that she had and the cost of all of these appointments. Um, and we were discussing adding in, you know, a mental health therapist or, or the acupuncture. Um, cause those can be, you know, those can go together, but. versus like the continued PT or chiropractic or whatever else, and not to downplay any of these specialties at all. But it is like, if you are not in a good mental space, first and foremost, then a lot of the other stuff is not going to work. And so if you are investing a lot of money in IVF, which it does cost a lot of money, but you're going in like a complete frazzled disaster of a person and you're falling apart and you can't, know, it's like, then it's not really gonna, it's probably not gonna work. And the whole experience is going to be just awful. So it is kind of like investing a little more money in the mental health therapy piece, in the acupuncture piece, the acupuncture piece can work on a mental and emotional level as well as the physical level. So that can do multiple things. But I think it's just so important to invest in yourself because you're already investing in the process. And we should anyway, as a general rule, take care of ourselves, but people tend not to. ⁓ But to me, the extra money spent on those things can really make a huge difference in the process, in how you show up and how, even on a spiritual level, like how you're welcoming this. spirit baby into your body and are you again, are you a frazzled disaster? Are you kind of like, you know, you've spent a little extra money to show up in a really calm ready space, both your body and your mind. So I just think it's really important.

speaker-0: What would you say to someone who is afraid of the idea of needles?

speaker-1: And that's a tough one because there are a lot of people who are incredibly needle phobic and that is a legitimate phobia for some people. And even if it's not as extreme as a phobia, can be very anxiety producing. And I've worked with a lot of patients who it's hard for them to come in this office and it's hard for them to try to relax. They don't find it relaxing. ⁓ And what I'll say is the acupuncture can work whether you're anxious or not. mean, we tried it once the needles are in. Generally speaking, the nervous system will calm down. ⁓ But if that's not the case, you know, and people are just so anxious that it's like counter, it's counteracting what we're doing. Certainly acupuncture might not be the right modality for those people. I do think it can still work. But I also am like, if you're a completely anxious wreck every time you come for acupuncture, then perhaps that's not the best approach for you. Because again, going back to the fight or flight, the overall goal is just to support your body and your nervous system being able to be pregnant. But I will say that most people we can get through a session, whether it's like your example of the Harry Potter movies, you know, I've had people listen to podcasts or they bring their own music or they have somebody like their partner or a friend who comes and sits with them. whatever needs to happen so they can get through the session, people really most of the time can manage it, even if it makes them nervous.

speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, I think it's just like finding your... I'm not a need, I don't love needles, who does? But I will say if you're going through IVF, you're gonna have to deal with needles. It's not gonna be something you can just... No, you do not have a choice. And so my thought was like, I'm not like, please, where was like one of the weirdest places that you put a needle in me to even remember?

speaker-1: You don't have a choice. the weirdest place. I mean, everybody has different places that make them so nervous. You know, like I one woman who did not she will not let me put a needle on top of her head. Like that is too nerve wracking. But other points are fine. You know, there's like, I would say this one can be nerve wracking. This is called red 22 in the middle. There's a lot that make people nervous. Sometimes it's the abdomen. Sometimes it's more the feet, the feet and hands tend to be the most painful for people. So yeah.

speaker-0: I feel like you did one like here or like somewhere like in between, I don't know. don't know exactly. Large intestine the one that hurts me the most is over here or something. Yes.

speaker-1: Yep. Large intestine four is in between the first and second fingers, kind of in the meaty part, but it is, it's a very strong point. So it is typically pretty uncomfortable or most people will feel that. ⁓ yeah.

speaker-0: I remember saying, yeah, that's a spicy one. Yeah, spicy.

speaker-1: And sometimes the spicy ones are the ones that you need, but it is uncomfortable, but it does pass. And I will tell people that, you know, I'm obviously an acupuncturist, but I get very nervous when I get treated. And I always have. I think sometimes when you're really sensitive, it's very uncomfortable. ⁓ But I always get through it and I always feel incredibly relaxed once all the needles are in. And I, I know that it benefits my body. It's just kind of like breathing through it. You know? Yeah.

speaker-0: The way that I feel like I approached it, like, because I didn't know what you were going to be like, and we can talk about electro acupuncture in a second. But one of the things that I told myself every time not knowing where, because you would base it off my body that day, unless it was like the protocol. And so when you would like, you know, decide I'm going to put it here, I'm going put it there or whatever. and I knew it was gonna be a spicy one because it's been before or it's a new one, I've never had it before, my thought was if I clench, it's gonna be harder. ⁓ It's gonna hurt more and I'm gonna, you she may back off and have to do it more than one time. So why don't I just like deal and get through this part because then I do know that things do settle. So it's just kind of like getting pinched, you know, or getting a flu shot or something. Once it's in, it's in. And so if I, if anyone out there is thinking there's just no way in the world that I would ever consider acupuncture, especially if you're going through IVF, go for it. Cause you're going to get, you're going to get plenty more needles where that came from and they're going to be sharper or feel sharper to you. And so just, I would say just give it a try, give it a try and see if you can find your ways to bring in some things like, like Alex mentioned, a podcast. a partner, someone to ask you questions, whatever. And also find the right ⁓ provider. Alex was a great

speaker-1: Great. Thank you for saying that. mean, that is a super, super important part is finding a provider who you really trust, especially if it is anxiety producing, because you are going to be in a place of like vulnerability, just like you are with any provider and feeling like you are with somebody working with somebody who you feel you still have a voice with. You can tell them you're nervous. ⁓ They can help soothe you. Certainly, if a provider is dismissive, that doesn't help anything. ⁓ And I've heard that happening with people where it's like, ⁓ you're fine. And that doesn't help because anxiety is very real. So finding someone to work with who puts you at ease and can kind of work with you ⁓ is definitely a big deal. And what I will say is, again, for those people who are really nervous and who haven't tried it is, Acupuncture is really calming. It does calm the nervous system. It seems counterintuitive that it would when you have a bunch of needles all over your body, but it does. ⁓ And some people still are nervous, but I do think that when you come repeatedly, it gets easier and your body does go into relax mode way quicker because your body knows what to expect. and you kind of can go into this very deep state of healing. And that's what our goal is. And you kind of can check out for 20 minutes and your body gets a break from all of the outside noise. And that's when we can influence your whole system, your hormones, your stress, everything.

speaker-0: Also, what I loved about your approach, especially with the fertility piece, was that, and I'm not sure how everyone else does it, I can only speak to what you have done, but I suggest that people try to find somebody who will do this in a way. So at the beginning, we would do an intake, not like the first time intake, but like you would ask me how I've been doing and you did this before we became friends. This is just the way you did it. And it was sort of like a mini therapy session in that. because you ask questions that would help you, my answers would help, I think, tell you where you needed to work on my body. And in doing so, our rapport was built, as well as that not dismissive thing, I felt really comfortable telling you what was going on in my life, either professionally, personally, or physically, and all the above, I guess. Because you ask questions that were going to help you. So I was able to kind of shed some of that stuff before the needles came in. And then once the needles are in, that's not what's on my mind. Because I already had unloaded it to a degree. And then, of course, picking Harry Potter and doing something that made me feel even more relaxed, felt like it really felt like a mixture of a massage, not really like in that true sense of the word, but... like going to the spa kind of thing when you're actually in the relaxation mode, plus getting a little bit of mental health work as well. So I agree with what you said earlier saying there is a double component that acupuncture offers that maybe some of the other ones, you kind of have to put them together to get those two. So again, obviously we're big proponents of it over here, ⁓ but let's move into the electro. acupuncture that you did on me and you can, HIPAA does not need to be here. You can tell them anything you want to. I'm here consenting in person.

speaker-1: Okay, one, let me just say thank you for, you know, I'm glad, thank you for all the positive things you've said, and I'm so glad it was a positive experience for you. I mean, that's the goal, of course. And ⁓ yeah, you know, I will say the whole thing about being left. One thing that I do in my practice, and I think that, you know, you can always ask a provider if you're nervous, I do have buttons that I give people. So like, when I leave the room, you get a button and you can buzz me if you need me. ⁓ because I do think that people can get incredibly anxious if they feel like they're left in a room and they don't know when somebody's coming back. When I was in school, we had bells, like there was a way to get a hold of your practitioner. And if, and you can ask that right off the bat, if you're nervous about being left alone, then you know, if somebody, you could call before you make your appointment, like, do you have buttons? Do you have a bell? If they don't, you could bring your own bell. You know, like that way you're not feeling like you're abandoned in the room because I do think that that can be just make for a miserable experience. ⁓ but anyway, moving on to the East end. So the Eastern protocol, I originally came across from CCRM because they had published these articles. This article, it was a German study and, ⁓ Ashlyn, I can give you that information if you want to reference it in the podcast. later if people are curious, but essentially what CCRM used to do ⁓ was recommend this protocol for all patients. And now I'm not sure if they continue to recommend it for everybody, they, ⁓ it seems to me that they've changed things a little bit, but this protocol was a German study and essentially It's basically what I've decided to do moving forward for people doing IVF, even though CCRM doesn't always recommend it, but I just do it across the board now. ⁓ And what it does is it helps like increase blood flow to the uterus when you're preparing for IVF transfer, because it unblocks any impedances that may occur in the body, in the channels and blocking anything with blood flow. So our goal is to increase. blood flow to a healthy level, which of course the hormones are helping with ⁓ that CCRM has patients doing. But our goal is to help unblock any blockages in the meridians that are limiting blood flow and circulation to the uterus. So there are eight points. There are four in the legs and then four in the back. ⁓ And we hook them up to eSTIM, which is electrostimulation. So the points in the legs are spleen six and bladder 57. And those are done bilaterally. So you have one in your ankle and one in your calf on both legs. And then the ones in the back are bladder 28 and bladder 23. And those are kind of about two inches lateral to the spine. And the ones in the back get hooked up to a high frequency electrostimulation. And then the ones in the legs get hooked up to a low frequency electrostimulation. So I would say it's not the most comfortable treatment because you have two different frequencies of electricity. So the legs tend to get twitchy. There's it's a slower pulse and you can sometimes feel your toe moving ⁓ involuntarily and your muscles can twitch. And then the back is a high frequency. So it's not the most comfortable. ⁓ But the goal, the idea is that we are opening up the channels to allow for better flow to the uterus to get ready for a transfer for the embryo to be able to hold.

speaker-0: And that was my issue that they told me. had a little bit of a funky on one side, the blood flow. said, will you do this? And I was like, yeah. And that actually gave a lot of like oomph to the idea of acupuncture to me when they recommended it. I was like, all right, so this medical clinic, this fertility clinic is asking me to do something with acupuncture. And that's why I was like, I should do this the whole time, not the eSTIM, but I should... like look into this the whole time, because it was like, okay, if they're suggesting it around something as important as the transfer, ⁓ then why would it not be helpful to be doing the whole time? But I will say, you're very correct about it not being comfortable. I distinctly remember it was like a double when I went in for those, right? You would do that first and then we would do the regular.

speaker-1: And I did the regular, and I do the regular. So, so what, what Ashlyn means by regular is the e-STEM is like usually face down for about 30 minutes where we're doing this electro stimulation protocol with those eight points. And then I like to flip people over to be face up to do regular acupuncture, depending on what they need that day. And the reason I did that is because it is so uncomfortable that I find for most people, some people think it's relaxing, but I would say that's more rare. ⁓ So face up is kind of my way to like help people calm down and get more into that relaxed space after having the electricity part that's not so fun. ⁓ So yeah, it was a double usually for the IVF preparation.

speaker-0: with that, if you're going through IVF already, if you make it to the stage of embryo transfer, you have already gone through. Helen back with all the hormones, with all the waiting, with all the worry, with all the things. ⁓ What's a little East End? It's kind of my approach. it was, and again, I had to do it twice or two, you know, two rounds because the first transfer did not take. And so... once it got to the second time, it wasn't like, I don't think we're gonna do it this time. It's like, no, again, give it the best shot possible. And you have been stuck like a pig by this point. So if you are like, I don't know if I wanna add that to it, you know, if you're doing IVF, ⁓ yeah, like at this point in the process, you are like, kinda like just bring it on. Bring it on.

speaker-1: And, you know, I will say like anything that acupuncture, does get easier each time you kind of get into a rhythm. Your body knows what to expect and it is, it's just one of those things that, ⁓ you just do, you just do it. And in your mind, it's helping and it is helping. It's unblocking. And I tell people if they're having trouble as well, like visualize channels opening, visualize the blood going to your uterus, visualize the lining getting thicker. You're basically trying to prepare your body to be able to ⁓ hold your embryo. And so we're just doing everything we can, including, you know, the mental, emotional, nervous system piece, and then also the physical piece of the actual lining and blood flow. ⁓ But I think when people can conceptualize like what it's doing, it's easier. It's not, you know, it's just part of, to me, it's just like, yeah, you do it. And it's four weeks. and it's part of it and it stacks the cards in your favor that it's going to work.

speaker-0: And if you are trying to get pregnant, you're having a pregnancy after this. If you get successful with this and then you got a birth. So getting comfortable with being uncomfortable is sort of the name of the game.

speaker-1: Agreed. Yes.

speaker-0: so do you have any more that you want to add on the acupuncture side of things?

speaker-1: ⁓ gosh, I mean, the acupuncture, guess there's so much more to it, but I feel like that's a good place to start. If people have questions, mean, like Ashlyn and I have talked about, the plan is that I will come back for different podcasts. And so we can certainly take feedback about what topics people have more questions about or areas that we can expand upon because there are just so many. We can go in so many directions and there's just a lot of information. So don't want to overwhelm with too many things.

speaker-0: Yes, she will be a recurring guest. ⁓ She will be a recurring guest on this podcast and I'm going to try to pepper it in. think she's going to bring some of her patients who are wanting to tell their stories and that'll be great to have her in talking about the acupuncture piece, but also just, you know, just the journey because the acupuncturist, just like anyone who's going through this journey with you, they're with you all the time if you let them. And so they are aware of what's going on throughout the process, maybe more than most people, because they're seeing your physical body and they're asking you the questions if they're doing their job right. And they are giving you the care based on those needs to help you get the best possible outcome. So one more thing about not acupuncture, but this is just a personal story. And then I want to talk about your fertility stuff if you are willing. So I distinctly remember one session and it was in the back room. Like I remember this so well. I was in the back room and I think you said this all the time, maybe not every single time, but most of the time. But after you would put all the needles in, you would typically say, all right, I'm going to let you cook. Yes. And, and I was like, I mean, I heard it, whatever this particular time. I had like a light bulb. was like, cook, cooker, slow cooker. And the origin of that title of this podcast is that back in 2014, I, well, first of all, was my first marriage. And I, the fact that I'm saying it's a first means that there is a second. But I had stopped doing music and I was but I still creative and I was like, well, as a songwriter, maybe I'll just transition to write like novels or something like that. So I had already come up with like this whole concept, these characters for this book. And I did write it. Nothing came about. That's not important right now, but in my mind, I was like, I want my character to get pregnant and I'll align it when I get pregnant. and I'll write about all the weird things that I know will happen and that people don't talk about, which is ironic that I was thinking that way back then. But I thought it'll be funny, it'll be awkward, and you know, because I'll get pregnant soon, I'm sure. ⁓ Spoiler alert, none of that happened. The book was never written. But the title was Confessions of a Slow Cooker. And so when you said, all right, I'm going to let you cook, and that light bulb went back to 2014. And I was like, ⁓ my gosh. And so I held on so tightly because normally I want to like, not dissociate, but I want to like relax and go somewhere else mentally. I want to Harry Potter it out. And this time I was like, do not forget, do not fall asleep, do not forget. And waiting for you to come back, I don't think I hit the button because I was like, no, you need to cook. But waiting for you to come back to check on me. And I was like, hi, do you want to write a book together?

speaker-1: Do you remember that? And it was just such a great moment. And I was so excited about it. I was so honored to be asked. It was so great, the series of events that The Cooking sent you back to 2014. And here we are now, and not a book, but doing a podcast. And I think that's even better. And it's just how things evolve. It's so awesome.

speaker-0: It's a full circle moment. And I remember we did like actually like talk about it. We kind of outlined it. We did just some, ⁓ some interviews with people separately, but ultimately I got pregnant and then I had the pregnancy and you were pregnant too. that's a good segue to your personal story. But that all that stuff, like, you know, and then I was a new mom or whatever. So we were like kind of back-burnering it a lot. And then at the beginning of the year, this year, it was like, why is this a book? And anyway, here we are.

speaker-1: And here we are. And I love it. I love the evolution. And I think the podcast just makes so much sense. Um, before I segue into the, into my fertility journey, but you know, in terms of the acupuncture, the acupuncturist and they, an acupuncturist could be an ally in your fertility journey because it is something that can be difficult that you're not always sharing with everybody. I think Ashlyn mentioned in one of the earlier podcasts. of hers that, you know, the longer it goes on, the more difficult it can be. And you don't necessarily share with people. And certainly with IVF, you know, that experience can be very, ⁓ what's the right word, very impersonal, ⁓ you know, and so your acupuncturist can be an ally who knows what's going on with you, but also can be an emotional support ⁓ and a cheerleader and someone that you can confide in because it is all confidential. So that's all I'll say about that. ⁓ I'm glad I'm so glad. Well, and you know what? We're, we're great friends now and we both have kids and anyways. So my fertility, mean, my story is very different from Ashlyn's. but essentially I got married and then immediately wanted to start trying to have kids. And because I am an acupuncturist and I know all these things about the body and

speaker-0: And you were that for me. ⁓ thank you.

speaker-1: how to track your ovulation and blah, blah, blah. I had this expectation. I'm also very type A and very much like, if this is my goal, then this is how I get my goal. And so the second I got married, was like, and now we're going to get pregnant. And, you know, this is how we're going to do it. And it was just kind of a very rote, like, you know, I was very much a task master, like. Okay, I have cervical mucus. The LH surge is going up. Today is the day. And my husband's like, okay, can we like eliminate the cervical mucus piece? You know, I mean, let's just try to keep some sexiness in this picture. But, ⁓ you know, my approach was very analytical and fast forward about four months, which in the lung and the, in the scheme of fertility is not very long. In my mind, it felt like years. ⁓ But I went to see a healer and this is where, you know, this is another topic altogether because there's all sorts of, you know, healing modalities and, know, we can get very woo woo with spirit babies and all of that stuff. But I did go see a healer who was like, you know, I think you need to sort of switch your mindset from being this very analytical thinker and you're approaching it kind of like a mathematical problem. And you're not treating your body like a womb. That's a source of, you know, a place that a baby can come into. it's a source of your womb is like a love ⁓ nest. And she was like, try to change your mentality around that. Like lean into your more intuitive side and start doing meditations to connect with the spirit baby and getting more in tune with. with that side of things, not so much like this physical approach. ⁓ And I really leaned into that and I got a book by Walter McIgan called Spirit Babies that is, I think he has passed away, but he was a spirit baby communicator and I highly recommend it to all my patients, especially if you're, I mean, if you're a spiritual person, but even if you're not, ⁓ because I do think. you know, you're bringing in a soul into this world. There is a physical act of, you know, sexual intercourse and making it happen and all these things that have to align with your hormones. But there is the spiritual piece of like, there is a soul that comes into this little baby's body and becomes part of your family. And so, you know, I really connected in that way. And then I got pregnant very quickly after that. really when I switched my mindset and how I was treating my body and connecting into a more spiritual realm. So then I got pregnant with my son. And then, you know, the other piece of this journey that it was interesting, I listened to Ashlyn's sister on the previous podcast. you know, with my daughter, I had just stopped breastfeeding my son and You know, I think that my husband and I had sex one time and I found out that I was pregnant again. And, you know, we can, it was just one of those moments of like, you know, and I related to Ashlyn's sister, Maddie, where you're just like, wait, what? Like, what just happened? And there's all this emotion around it. And of course, you know, I did want another baby. I just wasn't ready at that particular time. And I had a lot of emotions around that because I also do work with a lot of people trying to get pregnant and who would give anything to have sex one time and have a baby and be pregnant. And I had all of those feelings of like, God, you're such a bad person. Like, what is wrong with you? Like, you're so lucky and you like you need to just like get over yourself. ⁓ But at the same time, it was like an incredibly hard, you know, when you have had a baby and you've gone through pregnancy for nine months and then you've gone through breastfeeding and sleeplessness and just utter exhaustion. And then you're like, okay, I'm six months out. I'm sort of getting back to myself. I went to a concert. I got drunk, whatever, for the first time. And then I was like, what? Like now I'm pregnant again. And ⁓ it was a really interesting, it was just an interesting thing to kind of cope with. And then simultaneously, I had a number of patients at that time who were on a ⁓ long fertility journey.

speaker-0: Wait, what?

speaker-1: I had a few patients who had had late loss, ⁓ late term loss that was really difficult. And, you know, really trying to handle that very, very carefully about ⁓ telling people my news. And, you know, like I've obviously shared with Ashlyn that it was like a one and done situation, but I was very, very careful of not saying that to people. And it's like, just important to... Not always, I mean, to just be aware of who your audience is because you want to be supportive at the same time and respectful of their journey. But, you know, there's always different sides to all the stories, right? Like getting pregnant that quickly was a very difficult thing for me at that time. but I was able to communicate with my patients, just like I am pregnant. If you feel uncomfortable working with me, I do understand. And I tried to communicate that in the most sincere way possible because obviously when people are trying to get pregnant, ⁓ being around people who get pregnant or who are pregnant can be very triggering and hard. So just trying to be sensitive with that. And I think that was an extra layer that to me was difficult to navigate, but... At the end of the day, the patients I was working with were grateful for the honesty. And I think Ashlyn's sister Maddie touched on this. And Ashlyn too, you're happy for people, but it's also really difficult. ⁓ And so, that was my journey, but I've seen it on both sides. For me, it happened very quickly with my daughter and really was not planned. And then with my son, it felt to me like... It wasn't happening. was frustrated. I was in tears every month. You know, like I did not do IVF, but I've seen the side of it being really hard and frustrating and an emotional and a roller coaster and all of those things. So it's a journey.

speaker-0: Yeah, it is. I, so for those who are watching, I will put up a photo of ⁓ one of our, well, my friend and your friend now, Kelsey Bruner, she took a picture of us. And so in this photo, if you're not watching, it is Alex very pregnant. Very pregnant. And my face is covered, I think, because she always put a towel over it. ⁓ But I'm in the middle of the IVF. So I'm like chunky monkey, but you're chunkier. ⁓ yeah, you're very pregnant. You are massive No, but so and that was that was the reason I even say that bring up the picture is that We talked about this because you had this conversation with me as as your patient and you just told me and I saw you during both pregnancies Yeah, and so I was able to you you I think the first time I went in you were newly pregnant with your son and you were telling me, you know, and you mentioned it in one way or another, because we weren't like close at that point. But it never occurred to me for it to be an issue because your journey is not my journey. And hey, I'm glad she's pregnant. Maybe she did some things to herself that would have helped her. I don't know. ⁓ But then the second one, you did tell me more of your story because we were friends by then and you weren't showing yet. But one thing I think we touched on was like at some point Like, this is not a conversation, like it's in your face as the patient. Because you're just growing and growing and growing. And so again, that did not even cross my mind to be an issue, but I know it can be an issue for some people. And that is not something to be self-critical about. You cannot help how you respond to something. If going to acupuncture is already hard enough for you to stomach or wrap your stomach. ⁓ sorry, pun. If it's already hard enough for you to wrap your brain around, and then when you get there, something triggers you, then it's probably not going to work as well as it could. So I loved that you were so open about it because... And so, like, honest to say, like, hey, you can be honest with me, you don't have to have the... Like, it just opened up the conversation in general. But what it did for me also was trust you. trusted you more because you gave a shit. And you cared about how I felt in this time. And so to me, that was one of the best things. And I feel like one of the most ⁓ endearing moments that I had with you was when you were honest about how it felt to be the pregnant person in this, because it gave me perspective on the other side. I mean, I know my sister, but like you were my provider and you were going along with me. more than my sister could because she was in a different state. And it gave me some insight on my own journey with my sister being pregnant a bajillion times, but then also understanding how it would feel in real time to be on both sides of the equation. so, also just made me love you.

speaker-1: Thank you. feel like you said that so beautifully. Thank you. yeah, it's, ⁓ you know, it's like you, of course you're in your own joy when you're pregnant, but I think there's, you know, if you're an empathetic person, there's awareness of other people really wanting that and having that be part of, know, like when you're pregnant, it's a tricky thing to navigate and just having sensitivity around it. But Ashlyn was so, you are so, you received all of it so well and you were so curious as well about the experience and you really were able to kind of be like, ⁓ yeah, it's interesting to see that perspective. ⁓ And even the perspective that your sister also experienced of like when you're not ready to be pregnant, it's its own sort of difficult thing because you're so happy, but you're also like, this is difficult. Like it's a very layered, there's just lots of layers across the board.

speaker-0: Talk about complicated. It's just complicated no matter what. And that's really why I feel like this would have been a book, still could be a book, I guess. And then now the podcast, it's like, there is no, it was easy for her, it wasn't easy for her. It's not the salt or the pepper. It's not the black or the white. It is like 4,000 different tributaries going through. And if you tend to think... And this is where I would caution ⁓ people who have had the negative feelings. There's no self judgment or criticism here. It's more just like, think about it, because you might be in the state where that I was in, cannot get pregnant to save my life. The only positive pregnancy test I have ever had is with my child. After one round of retrieval, two transfers. I've never had like a positive before and it just didn't take like whatever. I've never had that. I didn't know if it was possible. So I could get all in my feelings and it's easy to think what is wrong with me. You start to like, know, to pile it on yourself and start to think, ⁓ I thought I deserved it somehow. I don't know what I was thinking I deserved it for, ⁓ but I thought I deserved it. you know, self pity party, I had them. But ultimately, if you just assume that you are the black and someone else is the white, ⁓ you are missing the point. Because they probably have shades of gray, not maybe 50, but shades of gray in their journey as well. And I feel like this kind of ⁓ conversation, these conversations that are candid about all the things, you mentioned my sister, she, well, the name of her episode is One PCOS, Two miscarriages, four kids. And I should have added two ovulation cycles per month. talk about a ⁓ colorful experience. She went through it all. yet, if you just saw that she has four kids, you'd think, well, she has four kids. If you're the one that's thinking, I don't have a kid. It's easy to chalk it up and say, she got what I want.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: but it's a lot more nuanced than that. It is a lot more complicated and layered like you said earlier. thank you for sharing all of that. Anything else you wanna add?

speaker-1: No, I think that you just covered that so beautifully. it's, you know, but I will say, and Ashlyn mentioned this, and I agree, it is important when you're in this journey, whatever your fertility journey looks like to really honor yourself. if you have somebody, like, for example, if Ashlyn had been uncomfortable working with me because I was pregnant, I completely understand that. And I think when you're the, you're on the journey of trying to get pregnant, if it's like, you need to not be around people who are pregnant or you need to limit your contact or you need to not be on social media and see those announcements or you have to protect yourself a little bit. I think that's really important to honor that ⁓ and have no judgment with yourself. Like I'll just reiterate what you said, but I just think that it's really difficult and that you are, you can be happy for other people, but also be, you know, sad for yourself and, need to protect your own energy. And that's okay. You know, And a lot of this is honoring and taking care of yourself. ⁓

speaker-0: And not denying yourself. I think not denying yourself all the feelings, that doesn't mean that you get to have all the feelings and no one else gets to have all the feelings. You get to honor your own feelings and you get to make your own decisions around it. But I think it is also just as crucial being someone who couldn't get pregnant until she did with someone like you who got pregnant successfully. If you hadn't told me about any of that stuff, I would have been...

speaker-1: Yep.

speaker-0: made my own assumptions about you. know, no problems, no issues. Definitely, she already had another one, ⁓ my God. But you had ⁓ the grace to tell me about things and ask my opinion as well. So there was a dialogue as opposed to an internal monologue. And that is the only thing I'm trying to say here is that, you know, while I'm going on my journey, you are also.

speaker-1: And that's across the board in life, in the world in general. Yes.

speaker-0: Exactly. Yeah. it's being of two minds, not, you know, don't deny yourself the feelings at all and listen to them and take care of yourself. Because if you are trying to get pregnant, like she said, if you're in fight or flight, then it's probably not going to be like a hospitable environment for any of this to happen. ⁓ But on the flip side. ⁓ cause I remember some people that didn't want to be around me when I finally got pregnant and they were so on my, my, ⁓ on my cheerleading squad while I was trying, but because they were also trying and it wasn't happening for them just yet. I could feel that. And I knew how it felt to be the other person. So I wanted to honor that. And I tried not to take it personally because I knew it was a personal thing. was not mine. Their experience, was their experience. And my experience is my experience. So I think having dialogue about it and conversations with people and saying, I am uncomfortable, or someone saying, are you uncomfortable? Maybe that's a little easier. That can make all the difference because that means that you can come back to it later. You can revisit this relationship when things are settled. And also, if you hold that in, if you pretend, like say I was uncomfortable and I just didn't have the heart to tell you. and you didn't bring it up, but I'm like, well, what kind of asshole am I to whatever? And so I just stayed and I'm paying a of money for your services. I'm not relaxed. I dread coming. I dread seeing how much bigger you are every time. Like, what is the point? Totally. That's waste. agree. All right, so next I want to transition to a segment I call Hot Potato. It can be like things that are well-meaning, don't land well. It could be awkward, which is always funny, but not really in the moment. And then, or just like absolutely rude, unhelpful, things like that. So if you have anything, please do share because I think it's really important that these things are said out loud ⁓ for kind of a cautionary tale. ⁓ But also because I think these are the things we don't really talk about because they kind of are like either they're shocking or embarrassing or they're ⁓ shaming, any of those. And I feel like we're all, we all have those stories in our lives, whether or not it's around fertility, that we're like, like white hot shame, I know I had some of that, or just like, that wasn't helpful. And now you gave me more to think about. Now you gave me a burden that I didn't have before.

speaker-1: You know, one of the ones that was a pet peeve of mine that people would say, I've had friends say who had kids and when this is when we wanted kids, you know, and we'd be walking down to a date night and we'd run into somebody and they'd say, ⁓ must be nice. You're going on a date. Wait till you have kids. You won't get to do that anymore. Wait till you have kids. You won't get any sleep. Must be nice to get sleep. And you know, that kind of thing. And it always bothered me because I'm like, Well, one, you signed up to have kids and now you're complaining about it. And also, you know that we want kids. So yes, it is nice that we are going on a date and yes, it is nice that we sleep through the night, but saying it must be nice as if you have this hard situation, but like we do want your situation. We do want kids. We'd be happy to not have a date night in order to have time with our kids. And also like you get a babysitter and there's other things. You know, like things like that always bothered me. ⁓

speaker-0: that all the time. Yeah. I got that all the time. And again, I don't think that they're, I mean, these were your friends, right? They're not trying to, they're not trying to do what they're doing. You know, they're trying to like make

speaker-1: Make you feel better about your situation. get to go on a date or it be, but it comes across as like, well, okay, but we do want kids and we know that we're going to have sleepless nights and we know we're not going to have the same date nights and whatever, but that's okay. Like we're going in with our eyes wide open.

speaker-0: And when you're though, and yeah, I feel like everybody hears that ⁓ to a degree one way or the other, but I will say being someone who had a hard time getting pregnant.

speaker-1: that

speaker-0: ⁓ I try really hard knowing how that feels. When you're trying to get pregnant, you can't get pregnant, you alluded to this earlier, time is so long. Every month feels so long. And then you feel like it's been taking forever. And for some people it really does. But for some other people it doesn't in hindsight, but it feels like it in the moment. And there is nothing you can do during those moments other than want to be pregnant. Like it is all consuming, obsessive. If you are, well, if you're type A, like we are, but I would reckon, would venture to say that it's all consuming for anyone trying to get pregnant. And so there's just no way when you have a kid versus when you don't have a kid and you want a kid, like you cannot see beyond that. And correct me if you had a different experience, but like there was nothing I could do. It was like, you couldn't look around your infertility to be like, enjoy this now, enjoy this. There's no enjoying. when you can't get pregnant. There's no enjoying at all. You know, the process is, like you said, it's clinical, even if you're not with a clinic. And so yeah, that's A, unhelpful. B, it makes you feel other. And feeling other in any way, shape, form is just not helpful, especially when you're wanting your body to, you know, cooperate. You're wanting science to work. You're wanting whatever. Not to mention... Um, it just like, I don't know. It's like. It doesn't take into account the people you're talking to. So like you said earlier, know your audience, know who you're talking to in any of these things and try not to fill the space.

speaker-1: Yeah, just try to try to I think, you know, my advice is just like, have some have sensitivity around, you know, the things that you don't know, and don't make assumptions to what you were saying, don't make assumptions about people's situations. You know, like one of my friends who's been on an IVF journey, one of the hard things for her was like, when people would ask her if it comes up that they've been trying and they haven't gotten pregnant yet. And people are like, Oh, I'm sorry, or, know, And she's like, it's just this weird like pity that she's like, it's such a bizarre, it makes you just not want to talk about it because it's like, I don't need pity, you know, and that feels bad. And like, you feel sorry for me. and that, that's one where it's just like, you know, like having a response that's like, that must be hard, you know, like, I haven't been through that, but I'm sure that that feels hard at times or whatever you want to say, but not the like, ⁓ you know, There's just ways to be sensitive about what people are going through. ⁓

speaker-0: And one of the things you can always say is, like you said, I don't know how it feels. If there's something I can be doing or if there's something I can say that will help, let me know. It is okay not to know. It's okay not to have an answer. To me, is making it about you if you feel like you do need to solve the problem of someone else's infertility with a platitude or a word or a piece of advice. Having advice is not a problem. Giving someone good... vibes is not a problem. None of these, it's again, there's just nuance to it. And none of these things that you're, none of these things that you're saying are. helpful to anyone in a journey, whether it's IVF, fertility in general, divorce. I had a lot post-divorce. People would say weird things. I think my grandmother, this is not fertility oriented, this is my point for bringing this up, is my grandfather got Parkinson's and people's response was, well, at least he doesn't have cancer. And she was like, okay. How do you figure, you know? Right. He has something. Right. It's just a weird thing to say.

speaker-1: People don't know what to say, but it is kind of like come back to them. Just you can say, I don't know what to say, but I support you. You know, I don't know what to say, but you know, I'm here for you anytime or what, know, whatever it is, like you don't have to, just don't say anything.

speaker-0: Tell them you don't know if you don't That's the most honest answer.

speaker-1: And you don't have to say like, know it's going to happen because you actually don't know what's going to happen. can just literally say, you know, I, yeah, I don't know what to say, but I'm here for you. I'm sure that I'm sorry you're going through that, you know, and that's

speaker-0: Sorry you're going through. Anything. Anything that's bad. Thank you, Alex, so much for this first inaugural episode. so to everyone else out there, thank you for listening. I'm going to put all the information that Alex spoke about in this episode, including the book that she recommended, ⁓ her, you know, if you have questions, if you have a question for her, if you have a topic you want to talk

speaker-1: So fun!

speaker-0: about you want her to talk, excuse me. If you have a question or you have a topic you want her to talk about on this show, please reach out either to me or to her. I will find a way to put something in the show notes for that. ⁓ My email's in there. You can find me anywhere and ask the question. I will deliver it to Alex, but I want this to be a good resource for those who are experiencing ⁓ fertility issues or haven't even started yet. Thank you so much for listening. And if you know of anybody who needs this kind of information, please share this episode. We are all going through this together in one way or another, even if it's past, present or future. And anything that we can do to help someone's burden be lessened, to lighten the load, that's what we're trying to do on this podcast. And I'm so thankful to have Alex on this journey with me, this podcast journey about the fertility journey. ⁓ Thank you so much for... And so anyway... Oh, yeah. Thank you for coming. until next time, take care.

speaker-1: Until next time, thank you. Love you.