Episode 26: You're Not Late with Tiffany Robertson

Small Batch Sound: Hey everybody, and welcome back to Confessions of a Slow Cooker. I'm Ashlyn Blue, and today I'm delighted to talk to someone who arrived at the decision to pursue the IBF route for a different reason than a lot of us, especially every woman I've had on the show thus far. When you hear that a traditional couple went through IBF, you, or at least I, typically think that someone had some problem along the way. It could be the female. Who had issues with her eggs, you know, being older, or the reserve is is running out, or maybe the embryos needed some help sticking, aka the getting pregnant part. ⁓ maybe there's an egg donor involved, ⁓ endometriosis, fallopian tube issues, or fallopian tube removal. Or if it's the male, it could possibly be what happened to my husband. He had an obstruction that sort of seemed to come out of nowhere. And so they had to manually extract his sperm so that they could put it with my aging eggs and ⁓ non-sticky uterus. Sorry, that sounds really gross. sorry. But there are other reasons for people to pursue IVF. And Tiffany Robertson is one of those people with her husband, Jeff. ⁓ I don't want to tell your story, Tiffany. Hi, welcome. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Thank you for just being brave enough to start this podcast and create space for women and cup couples, you know, to navigate this journey and hear from other voices. So I'm really proud of you and honored that to even be invited into this conversation. So you're so kind. And ⁓ by the way, disclaimer, I tried to get Tiffany on here months ago. I don't even remember exactly the date, but what I do remember is that Leah, your younger sister, who I'm gonna talk to next week, she slept through our one last week. Because she was so tired she didn't sleep at all, which shocker and anyway, she went to labor that day and you were like, ⁓ so I need to reschedule. And I totally understood. And ⁓ obviously this whole podcast is about the baby part. So anyway, this is a little crazy and I'm so Yeah, it was it was a crazy time. It was I was like interviewing for a new job or maybe just gotten an offer for a new job and I was res resigning at like a company I loved and like there was a lot of of emotions there and then my sisters having a Saying yes to me, girl. I I Because this I mean we did win. Because this is important and ⁓ women ⁓ you know, families need to have like ha have their voices heard and and know like There's so much ⁓ healing and like bonding that I've ⁓ shared with other women and it's just been really special for me. And so I think what you're doing is great. And so it was important. It was just a crazy season of life. And so I feel like, you know, we finally arrived here. I hope that we share something meaningful that somebody can take away and and feel you know, seen and heard and like they're not alone in this journey. So You will. And I am a firm believer that when something works out, it's like when it was supposed to in the first place. So there's like a good reason why that happened. I don't want to be like, ⁓ it's fade or it's like I'm not looking too much into it. It was like a a bunch of things happening, but and now I I have a lot more under my belt. A lot so I ha I I feel like I can bring more to the table in terms of my conversation with you. So again, here we are. ⁓ where do you want to start? Where do we want to start? I mean, you mentioned that ⁓ we, you know, we did not arrive at the decision to pursue IVF ⁓ for the same reason that a lot of people do, which is ⁓ you know, through any like medical issues or complications. ⁓ so so my husband and I both ⁓ previously married to other individuals. We both went through a divorce. He had two children, wonderful children, who I love dearly and have accepted as my own. ⁓ and We knew that we would want to start a family, but he was very clear with me for a long time that, you know, he early ⁓ on had had a vasectomy and had, you know, was trying to continue and pursue his marriage and stay in it. And then ⁓ and so they just made that choice. And so by the time we you know, they've been forced and we have arrived at the place where not only are we back together and starting to talk about getting married and having a family, but that had been like a long time had passed since the vasectomy date. And so We go to the doctor to say, you know, what does a reversal look like? What does it cost? And basically we w we didn't get great news. ⁓ it was like, We're happy to try the reversal. ⁓ but it after ten, you know, post ten years from the original surgery date, like the decline of the success rate declined significantly. And so he's so he had had it ten years before. like over ten years before. And I guess ⁓ maybe it was yeah. And so by the time we got there, they were like, we can do it, but there's like not a lot of suc we tend to find not a lot of s success after the 10 year period. Now that data's skewed because a lot of people are getting that vasectomy later than when my husband got it. Right. And so they were like, we can try it. Well when you look at the numbers and you're like, ⁓ we're gonna go s you know, spend ten thousand dollars or whatever it is for this like fifty fifty shot and then pursue IBF, which is gonna be all of this money. Mm-hmm if it doesn't work or we could start there. And then, you know, and just know what we're kind of getting. ⁓ so that's just we just maybe it was I don't know, it was it was logical to us and there was a time gap too. Like we would not know for a while, we would know if it had worked, but then it could still take a while to get pregnant and we still could end up in a situation where we had, you know, some type of issues. ⁓ and so we just thought this is the surefire route. Let's just go all in and do it. And I did a little research on this because it never occurred to me until you told me your story that like again, I said from in the intro introduction that like when I hear IVF, I think I mean, I actually do know somebody who had to go the IVF route because her husband had leukemia. And so I didn't find this out for years and years that that's how she had her children. But like I always only thought IBF was because you had trouble in the pursuit of the getting pregnant. I never thought about it for any other reason than that in in terms of traditional couples. ⁓ and so the it it when you you were like, hey, I don't know if I have like a regular story and you told me I was like, this is actually even more interesting because it's it's I and so I did anyway, I did some research on my own just to see like what are the numbers. And like you said, IVF is it can be, it can be quite a bit. You know, but then just the vasectomy reversal, it set a range of, you know, I and this is like a com compilation of everybody. It's not necessarily specific to your area, but between ⁓ five to fifteen thousand and a I heard I had someone on recently who said hers was ten thousand or his, I guess. But so that that tracked with me and I was like, Okay, yeah. And then what I read is that there are it's really up in the air and it has like it maybe will take twelve months for that to work. Right. Right. ⁓ or or for the reversal to actually even take. And when you're trying to get pregnant, it doesn't matter why. That time is precious. Because think I don't know how old you were then, but like it's even ⁓ you like you have very little patience when you're trying to get pregnant in my in in my personal experience. Yes. And To not know if it's if it's you or if it's the vasect like that would that would have driven me crazy. So I probably would have done the same thing. Like if we're gonna have spend a shred a lot of money, then we might as well go the more medically assisted route. Yes. It was like this some combination of time, money, effort, mental energy. It was just like, let's just let's just go all in. Let's just do this. ⁓ and because he had two older children at the time, how old would they have been? Maybe like s going into t ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, we've got two like a ⁓ two big bigger kids now. And so the longer that that took, it like real we were worried that we would have two separate families. And we I mean we obviously recognize there's always gonna be this big age gap, but we still we're like the more the merrier. Like we want ⁓ our home to feel like warm and welcome and just a lot of kids and you know, we'd even talk about like, do we adopt one day? What you know, what I just I want I I feel like we have love to give and we're really blessed. And so like let's just and we just wanted them to be together. And so like the yeah the gap, you know, when you think about just like starting over For my husband. I mean, he was also like, I would like to retire one day and not work forever to provide for all these children. And so we were just ready. We were just ready. And so, like, again, the factors of time, money, mental energy, all the things, we just said, What's going on in? ⁓ but that also made it really unique for me, I would say, in the journey, because when I did acknowledge to somebody that I was in that process or I'm, you know, going through IVF. I was met with a lot of empathy and like well wishes and like I'm so sorry or I know somebody else that did that. And I found myself being like, ⁓ no, it's fine, you know, we and like cheerful about it. And then I was I was like, Are people thinking do you think that they think I'm like arrogant because I'm like, ⁓ we didn't have issues? And I'm like Noah, there was either Yeah, so there was this like mental gymnastics that I was doing to try to like, what should I say my story is? Because I didn't feel necessarily in the camp of women that had been through it and had issues. But there's a the other part of it's like Ivy like I still put that needle in my rear head every single night for however many months. I would like it's like I I don't even want to think about it anymore. But like I still did that. You know? And I still pumped my body with all this I know. I pumped my body with all these hormones and still had that anxiety and the surgery like all the things. So yeah, it was a really interesting ⁓ I was in this the I was in the journey, on the journey, but also felt separate from others that were on the journey. And I remember being in the waiting room ⁓ and just like looking around and like praying for the other women in that room because I realized that most of them would not have arrived, like they would not have arrived at that appointment cheerfully. They would have arrived at that appointment after many, many. months, years of pain and tears and all of that. And here I was like beep popping in, like so excited and ready to go. And I just recognized that like we all have our journey, but like also just prayed for the again for those women and their journey as well. Because it's ⁓ no matter how you arrive at it, it's once you're in it, it's not sexy. It's very clinical. ⁓ and we all we all know what we've you know what we've what we've been through. So my favorite thing to say is like when my child ⁓ acts up in my head, I don't say this to him. That's that would be very scarring. But I'm like, dude, you were made in a lab. Why are you doing you know? Yes. Like you were so intentional. Why are you acting this way? You were the highest grade egg that we were the best we had. The the best we had. They didn't edit out that crazy part. Yeah. I know. Sometimes I sometimes I feel the same sometimes. I think with all of our children, we're like Yeah. Yeah, that's when I'm like, okay, they're acting like you, babe. You know, come get you. Yeah. ⁓ and that's the other thing. Like, he came out looking just like Marcus and I was like, okay, they didn't switch us to the lab. Like, this is definitely like all of our our beings are this is ours. Yeah. This is ours. Which is wild that we are still hearing stories about that. Wild. I that never even crossed my mind going through the process. Didn't ever think twice about it. It didn't cross mine, but it did cross Marcus's ⁓ I think not because he thought it would be a problem, but no, I I take it back. It didn't cross his mind. It was when we were in one of the further down the line, ⁓ ultrasounds, when they could see more of his little face and they took a shot and it was so clearly a blue nose. And he was like, I because he hadn't I had I don't think he had started a kick yet, so he hadn't Or at least he was kicking inside, but he wasn't kicking enough for Marcus to feel it out on the outside. And so he had this lack of connection to it. And he hadn't felt ⁓ hadn't felt that connection that he wanted to feel. And so seeing his little like his trait on the screen did that for him. And then we made the joke, Well, I guess they didn't switch us. So he wasn't afraid of it. But that's when we were like, Wow, it could have. But like now we know like It didn't, but like, ⁓ shoot. And they even changed the process from the first you know, we were really blessed. We went two for two. So we did two transfers and we were again just so blessed. And that's awesome. Between the first and the second, ⁓ they on the screen in the sec in the, you know, operating room, the they showed on the screen like like my name attached to that ⁓ you know. petri dish or whatever it was. You know, I don't know. I'm like, you know, cranked my neck backwards looking at it and they're like, Can you verify this? And I'm like, Is it good, babe? So anyways, it definitely changed from the first process to this to the second that they did show us like the actual Petri dish. Now, that still doesn't mean that they couldn't have put the top on wrong, but I think my children are very mine when you look at very yours. They are very mine. I am so blessed. We ended up with ⁓ Rhodes, our son. He's now Four and a half. And then ⁓ Scotty is two. So like I said, we went two for two. A boy and a girl. Thank you. She went to their book. Everybody was like, ⁓ my gosh, she looks like Jeff. And I'm like, do you know what I have been through? I don't even care if she doesn't look like me. Tell her, tell me she looks like me. Lie. Lie. Lie. Yes. Yes. And not to mention he has two other ones that look Like, look like him too. I have seen that. Right. His genes are very strong. Like very strong. Like we don't yes. ⁓ again, I frequently tell him that. I'm like, okay, they act like you too. No, she does. She's starting now close at to starting to look more like me, ⁓ which has been funny. Fun and and her like personality is a lot like me too. And so my parents, my cousins, my aunts, and ⁓ they're like, ⁓ my gosh, that's little Tiffany. So it's been really fun. that's hard fought hot hard fought, you know, journey. ⁓ but yeah. Like we're so blessed. Can I go back to your whole waiting room thing? Because I just wanted to comment on it. ⁓ I think I'm so glad you brought that up. Be not for like woe is me for anybody else in that room. But I think it's really good to recognize And not da like I said earlier, don't get discount y the way you got there. Everyone gets there for a different reason. ⁓ you still had no, like you may not have had the personal body, like, is it failing me or whatever. But we still like what if then when they had gone in, 'cause they had to manually extract sperm from Jeff, right? And eggs and all that for meat. Yeah. I mean, right. So yeah, so there was still no guarantee when you went in. You just weren't plagued with the feeling that it wouldn't work like a lot of us are when we walk in there because nothing has worked. And so you came in a little ⁓ dare I say naive. And that was probably very helpful to you, you know, in getting there. And and so that's a that's a gift. Enjoy that gift in my opinion. Like if you don't have to go through that part, then more power to you. ⁓ but I think there's so much, especially with women, especially with southern women, That we think that we need to water ourselves down to not bother the person next to us who we assume or perceive has has it worse. And that I feel like when you discount your own feelings about it, you don't allow yourself to feel it. I'm not saying that that's what you did, but I just think it's worth mentioning because everybody's got something that they are going through. ⁓ it's at one point of of of time. You and I both I I think we both talked about it actually at this open house. Yeah. Yes. I vividly remember this, which is so weird. But you and I had both gone through a divorce. I think you and Jeff had just gotten back together for whatever reason and and we were talking. I was nowhere near happy yet, but you gave me some hope in that moment. And like a lot of hope actually. ⁓ and for for everybody to n you you don't know how we know each other but ⁓ I kind of I mentioned Leah, your younger sister. ⁓ Leah went to the same dance studio that I did growing up. She's ten years younger than I am. And Tiffany, you are about you're my age pretty much. Seven seven years older than Leah. And so just Okay, so you're a little younger than I than I am. Yeah. So you're more you were more in the periphery, which is funny because I wish we would have been friends. I know growing up. But when you lived in Nashville, we would have and especially for that season of your life, like where you were finding your footing again. Like even though I had you know, c reconnected with Jeff, I had always loved Jeff. ⁓ it was I had had an opportunity to go back to the University of Tennessee, get my master's degree, and he was like, I can't hold you back from that. You've gotta go. So we stopped dating. I move up, I meet, you know, this guy with all the checklists, and he was a wonderful guy. And it just it wasn't the right fit and like have a lot of love and respect for him. ⁓ but still that season of, you know, post divorce and the blows. And yes, and you're watching all of your friends, like they were announcing their pregnancies. And I was going to these like gender reveals and here I am. I was in that, like, woe is me. And even though I had somebody who I loved, you know, had started, you know, reconnected with and who I loved and cared about, I still was like working through this identity of like I thought I was gonna be married forever and I haven't, and am I deserving of love? And and then there's like, you know, Jeff is like We know we love each other. Like, let's go. We've got, you know, like time is ticking. Again, I want to retire one day. And if we're gonna do this baby thing, like and so again, by the time we finally arrived at like, I did not want to step into a marriage without being healed and feeling really healed. And so that took a little time. And so by the time we are we got there, ⁓ then we we decided to, you know, pursue that. And then Leah got diagnosed with her ⁓ we got married and then a couple months later, Leah got diagnosed with her brain tumor. And it took ⁓ everything mentally, just it took everything for all of us to continue to like wake up and go to jobs and like go to the hospital in the morning before work and then go to the hospital after work and like ⁓ it was all that we could do. And so then, you know, we finally kind of get like she is well, by the grace of God, she's healed, like we're so blessed. And we started that journey ⁓ into IVF, but it was also then right in the middle of COVID. Like right in the middle of COVID. So then and and I had lost my job. ⁓ part COVID, part it wasn't a great fit. And so I think COVID was probably the excuse, but it was fine. It was also a blessing because I kept saying, When I have a child, I do not want to drive an hour and fifteen minutes to and from work each way and not get home and see my child. Yeah. But I probably never would have quit because I would have wanted to work and do all things. So it was like this blessing, like this window opened up, I'm home. Our kids at home knit Artie at home needed more love and attention. And so we were able to pour into them and do some side venture businesses while we pursued IVF. And I was I felt really blessed that I wasn't I thought about the women that would have to go sit at an office and step out to go do a shot or like just you know, I had like the space that I was not around people necessarily 24-7. We were doing some real estate projects and flipping some houses, and so I still had quiet time in my car. I still I just can't imagine like also carrying the weight of let me show up and be on for fifty hours a week and doing a presentation, but you have no idea that like my butt hurts right now because I had a four inch needle in it last night. You know, it's like again, all of a all of it I just try to look back with gratitude and a blessing. But that was ⁓ a really hard time to also do IBF was COVID because the clinics If you like every time you went in, you had to sign that you did not have COVID or had not been exposed to anybody, you were masked up, you were sitting s far apart. ⁓ and if you got COVID while you were in the middle of everything, everything was derailed. Everything was derailed. You you could have had you could not have come to the office and you would have to completely stop and just start the whole process over. Which is a lot of money. So much money. So much mention anguish and all the other things, but literally so much money. Just at f yes, just f yes, just the financial piece alone. You're like, we're not doing this more times than we have to. Then you just think about your body and what you go through and to just think about stopping that process overall. So tr th this is something I haven't shared honestly out loud with many people. ⁓ but I lost one of my I would argue my best friend in the whole world through that season of life. ⁓ really. Yes. And She was going through a really hard time in her personal life. And I recognized that. ⁓ and I wanted to be a good friend for her. The toll that Leah's brain tumor took on our family emotionally, then COVID, which I have enough anxiety. I did not need the world to go into a global pandemic in the middle of all this. And yeah, and then we're doing this IVF that I'm like, at any moment, this whole thing is gonna be real for simply just being in the wrong place at the wrong time and getting COVID. Right. And so this like just overwhelm of anxiety. And I don't know that she fully probably recognized the weight of that for me and would still you know, she's newly single and she's like, you know, come have a drink with me. Come out. Like not worried about getting sick. She'd already had COVID. So it just wasn't a thing to her. Mm-hmm. And ⁓ yeah, so it ended like it just I had to create a a lot of distance which didn't feel good. and it ended up, you know, it Just looking back, I give myself a lot of grace and just say that like sometimes in life you have to protect your own energy. You know, post divorce, I didn't have much to give to my friends. They hopefully know that I love them, but it wasn't my season to pour into them. And this was also that season where like I know she needed a lot, but I was hanging on by a thread. Like incredibly blessedly. Did she know you were doing the IBF stuff? She did. Like she was over at my house like one of the first nights and like she knew, but I just But comprehension and knowing can sometimes be different. Yes. Yeah. You just don't really keep it is really hard to comp like truly comprehend the gravity of like and just I was so overly anxious about COVID because it was gonna and we all we obviously we had two children who were going ⁓ Back and forth to another house. The other house I don't think had a lot of concern for it. ⁓ and so Yeah, which that's a huge layer. ⁓ my gosh. I mean and we're talking about a pandemic that is respiratory. You know, or ⁓ we're talking about COVID, talking about a respiratory issue and we're talking about ⁓ social distancing like ⁓ ta and all a lot of misinformation, disinformation out there. It's not that's not a political Comment, but more like we just don't know because it's also evolving at in real time. And so we're all just handling it. And I do remember I didn't start we started trying in 2020, but so by the time we got to the IBF part, it was like 20 it was late 21. And so still protocols. I mean, all those signs are like you know, the printouts on the doors. Yes, no children are allowed to come in. If you do pet tests for whatever ⁓ that you then you need to reschedule like all these things and it's just so scary because it's so easy to happen for you to get it and in in add on I didn't have children ⁓ I had dogs which they felt safe to me to go outside and whatever but and I was pretty sequestered in Aspen because no one was coming. ⁓ actually people were coming. They were just staying. They weren't coming and going and so and I my husband was like, no you're not going anywhere because I have really bad asthma. So I was at home but I was still afraid. That in the trek 'cause I had actually go to Denver for mine. So I had to drive three and a half hours just to go to my clinic and I had to go to the lab a lot. So I was in the hospital a lot up in Aspen and I thought, what if I just cough or get coughed on the wrong way and it goes through that little tiny part of my mask and it just finds its way into my being like that's everything. And that's a three and a half hour drive every time, plus the money or whatever. Yeah. And okay, can I just say you and I would be real We we still can be. But we would have been really good friends because I feel your anxiety energy and I love it. Yes. Thank you. I just had to do a an interview. I told you I got a new job and I had to do an interview. And they did all these like this whole battery of assessment. It was w i I mean, it was wild. You see that at your executive level level, but this was like for my level, I was like, wow, this is pretty intense. And he's like the psychologist is like debriefing it with me, like after this three hour case study, all this. And he's like, Do you know that you're a worrier? And I'm like, Buddy, we didn't have to pay for this assessment to tell you that. Like, I could have told you that. That was free. I could have told you. I'd walk in worried. Yeah. I was worried you would tell me I was worried. I was worried. Yeah. I was already mo self-monitoring because I thought you would notice that I was worried. So so anyways, I told him. ⁓ my gosh, I love you. I I was like, I'm so self aware of who I am. And the good news is that my anxiety has served me and that I might pull an all nighter before presentation because by gosh, like you're what you're gonna get. It's really good for everyone else. Anxiety is really, really good for everyone, especially anyone you work with or work for, because yeah, you will get that done. ⁓ but it is not the greatest tip living in your own body. ⁓ I will say. Yes. And then yes. So then you add all of the hormones from IVF and you add this global pandemic and it was just so much. And so I was convinced. I was like By the time, you know, we're pregnant. Rhodes was due at the end of September. And the kids go back to school in August. We're not masking. Again, not a political statement here. Just that is a fact. We're going back to school. Everybody's going to be together again. We know it's going to all kick up again. And I was like, that's it. He, Jeff, like, the kids are going get it. They're going to bring it home. I'm going to sequester into our room. Jeff's going to be with them. Then Jeff's going to get it. And then I'm gonna go into labor and Jeff's not gonna be able to be there to see his baby before and I'm gonna be by myself. Like that is that is where my story went. I'm not laughing at you. I am with you. That is where my story went. That is not what happened. That is actually not what happened. And then Jeff's like, Tiffany, if I have COVID, I'm still gonna come to the birth of our child. And I'm like, no, you're not. You cannot. I've gotta get sick. And that was still when they were I mean, it was the end of 21. So yes, we were still out of it, but that was still like you couldn't have extra people. Jeff couldn't cut le go, ⁓ come and go to the hospital. He was like a crazy person by the time we got to like three days in hospital. He was like, I've got to get out of here because you couldn't come and go. Like my mom was able to come for the birth. Yeah, exactly. Like my mom was able to come for the birth, but she couldn't like come back. Like once she left, she had to stay. So it was just like such a strange time. And that was still when they were separating moms and babies. Like if the mama tested positive. And I blessed those NICU mamas because like that was I just was like. devastated at the thought of being separated from my baby. So there's so many emotions for any mother in any season. But gosh, the IVF during COVID was a whole nother layer for an anxious for anybody, but definitely for someone who runs anxious, like you and me. And by the way, shout out to Gloria McGee. I love your mother. She is great. I get Apple does not fall far from the tree. So I get it very honestly. She is so high energy and so fun and like Yeah, we joke all the time about her her ⁓ grandmother name is Glowie because there's like she's not a grandma. Like she is fun. And so you know, her name being Gloria, we're like, You're just glowy. Like she's just sunshine. Yeah, she's just sunshine. So Glowie, we every time we talk to her, she's like, I'm sorry I'll have to call you back. I'm on the way to Pilates. Sorry, I'm going to paint class. Like, I got Bible theater, yeah. I've got book clubs. Yeah. ⁓ she's like, yeah, she's living her absolute best life and she's best grandma and we just wish that we lived closer so that we could have more free time. ⁓ girl, I get that too. We yeah. Yeah and you do far away. We do. Yeah. ⁓ you look like your mom too. And so I keep on getting like little glimpses of your mom. I I feel like I grew up with your mom because she was always at the dance studio too. and yeah and I feel like Leah looks more like your dad in a lot of ways. Some some other ways, but you are definitely Gloria. So anyways my my mom my brother looks like ⁓ my dad, but Leah's like a mix. A mix. I was actually in the r in this ⁓ grocery store one day in Brentwood and like somebody this lady came up to me and she was like, I know you don't know me, but like you have to be Glory McDee's daughter because I went to high school with her and I was in high school and she was like, You look exactly like her. Like she did, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so that was really funny. So, ⁓ yeah, so she's a great grandma and I wish we lived you're not a great yeah. Yeah, good news. I am Gloria's daughter, and that is a little strange that we look that much alike, but Yeah, she's great. Glowy's great. We love you, Chloe. We love you. My mom is Lovey. ⁓ I love Lovey too. That's such a great name. She picked it. I wanted Sheriff. Like 'cause she's Sherry. Sherry. And the sheriff is really appropriate. She's not like a like ⁓ you know, iron fist kind of person, but she runs a tight ship. She gets it done. Yes. ⁓ huh. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you have two and like I guess You we already sort of talked about a little bit of how you felt like when you were entering the waiting room and you thought, ⁓ everybody else is coming here with this like burden and all this negative stuff. When you were and you also talked about your your friend and I'm so sorry about that. not because not because ⁓ I mean like it's it's it's terrible to to lose a friend anyway, regardless of of how, but I also think that was really important to bring up because ⁓ capacity is a real thing. Yes. And when you're in high school, when you're in college, whatever, like things can go wrong. You can have lots of things happen and and have capacity issues there too. But I feel like it's just more and more complicated ⁓ as time goes on. There are more things to have happened. So maybe, maybe, and I'm just thinking, ⁓ from maybe her side. She's thinking, my life just fell apart. I'm now single. You have the husband. You're trying to have a baby. Like, you know, and it just doesn't even, it doesn't even like come through her brain that like you're pursuing something good. Like be happy. As opposed to understanding. And I again, not many people understand what IBF takes until they're actually in it. I've been told that way too many times by people like offline. They're like, wow, I didn't realize what what like all was entailed, ⁓ what it all entailed rather, and how long it was gonna take, how f few things were guaranteed, all the paperwork, all the what are you gonna do with embryos, like what if you guys split up? Like all this I just that was too it is. And and for anyone who doesn't know what we're talking about, ⁓ in in every clinic is different on how they start this process, but I feel like they do it at some point where before you do anything, before you get started, before They they have to go through like a series of, you know, scenarios. And one of them is, what if you die and there are still embryos out there? What are you gonna do with them? Are you gonna give to your partner? Do you want them but and you both have to agree, right? Like it can't be like I'd like for them to be n not with h with my partner or whatever. You both have to agree and you're just thinking about things that you're like, I don't wanna think about that. Yes. But you have to. And it makes sense. What if Jeff you know, what if God forbid something happens, Jeff passes away. Like, would he still want me to move forward and have one of our children? But like he would you never think about having that conversation. And then the flip side of that is I'm like, I would. I'm like, no, if you marry some new hot young wife, like absolutely not. She is not having my. But but then I was like, but if I but if you were gone, but like maybe I would still want one of you. So it was just this crazy And now on the it's very trippy. And then on the back side of it too. you if you are, you know, fortunate to have more like we we have more embryos. So but we're we're at capacity. Like ⁓ we're just at capacity. And like there are days that I want more, but I just know like that this is like this is where we are. So then there's that whole conversation with the back. And you like to retire. Let's just say that again And again, one more time. Jeff I do want you to retire. I'm fully supportive of you living and enjoying your life and not raising children your entire life. ⁓ yeah and so And our big kids are at an age now, like they're they're now in college and you know, we hope that they find their significant others and you know, in the next ten, fifteen years and they are able to settle down. But then we start thinking like, knock on wood, we you know, we they they could get pregnant at any point in the next Yeah. At any point. Yeah. Going forward. ⁓ and then we would have like a new baby and a grandchild and so we just are like, We're done. We're we're Which is a whole another issue. But this whole process And I commend you. I commend you for making that decision. I do. I do. Because what okay, capacity is such a big thing. If you got pregnant on your own on accident, like and this wasn't a thing, whatever. Because you deal. But when you have to make choices, sometimes there are hard choices to make. And I hate ⁓ that we're in that position. I don't have I'm not in that position personally. I don't have any more because that Archer was our last one, but I'm in the position that we didn't have anymore. You know, like so we're all in some sort of predicament, one way or another. And yes ⁓ the having more embryos one, I I don't know if I'd want to be in personally, because it's like it's a lot of like mind games of, you know, how people feel about it and what they think about it. And ⁓ and so I don't wish it on some like I wish a lot of embryos on somebody who needs some more tries. I don't wish it on someone who's at capacity, but I do love that you are realizing For you, because I mean who I'm not making that decision for you, but the you made that decision. You and Jeff made that decision that you are at capacity and that you're sticking to it and that you're not going for something because how someone else feels about it, you know? Well, and that's like the hardest part is because like we are still paying for those big like those embryos. We are still it's a lot of money per year. It is. And we like know that we're done. There are moments where I think about you know, I think I would have more. Like I would have yeah I'd have all of them. Like put them all in, let's see what happens. Like I would just like have ⁓ all. I but I also am very happy in my ⁓ in our life and our we both are getting to enjoy careers and that's really hard when you keep you know, when your family keeps growing and the t the tension of more children and careers and all of that. ⁓ and what's the age difference between you and Jeff? He's like nine and a half, ten years older than me. And but he started really young. So they started like right out of college, right? And so he was right ⁓ single again and had two young children ⁓ by the time he was 30. And you know, had kind of sworn off getting married again. And ⁓ and so to start that process over, I was in my early thirties, so he was already, you know, late thirties, early, yeah, I guess for in his forties. ⁓ and so he was like I'm already gonna be the the oldest one, which turns out people are delaying or are getting ⁓ starting families later. And so actually a lot of his friends ⁓ have started having children started having children around the same time. And so we actually that's been good. Like he's not felt like the oldest dad and and all that. ⁓ but but then you know, we go to events with like the big kids, and I'm definitely the youngest one there. Or I say something like, ⁓ we've got big kids, like we've got a twenty year old, and they're You have a twenty-year-old? I'm like, Well, hold on. So we just have this like big big family and a big story. And I'm like I know in my heart like I know we together in our major done, but like in my heart, I don't I don't know. I I don't know if all women feel this way or if there's like moments of clarity, but like I could smell a newborn baby and just do that whole experience like a million times. I could just so I don't know if I'll ever get over wanting one more of those experiences. ⁓ but we we do, you know, we're we're good. But Again, we have not made taken any action on like what what we do next because to do with, yeah. I don't know that we're mentally either one of us. It's very final. It's very final and we just the capacity to do the mental gymnastics to get to a decision because none of it feels right. You know, with the twenty three in me and the ability to like find your, you know, relatives. I just think about in the world one day, like our embryo like my children, like my children. Yeah. Being out in the world and like what if something what if their childhood was like unkind to them and they had like I would just never forgive myself. But then the other part of it is like some I would love to help someone else. Like there's beautiful people like you who be who may be like, I want one more. And like, ⁓ my gosh, that would be such a gift. So I gosh, I just it's just so we so instead of making a decision, we just are making no no decision. No, just yeah, we're just paying. We're continuing to pay. So that's where we are. And I bring this up. I mean, I I'm I'm like, I'm so glad we're talking about this because I feel like this especially I'm in Colorado now, but I you and I both grew up in Brettwood. And this is something I feel like nobody wants to talk about. ⁓ because there are so many implications ⁓ with religion and and right or wrong in general. ⁓ and this is not me on a political at all. But I just it this has nothing to do with p politics. But right now Texas is considering a an IVF ban and surrogacy ban. And I am flabbergasted about the idea of it being ⁓ you know, ⁓ a thing, knowing what it has done for your family and my family, for different reasons. You know, like we came to it for different reasons and I can't imagine Archer not being here. I can't imagine Rhodes and Scotty not being here. And I I I absolutely hate it for anyone going through something that they're like, well, now that's off the table too. You know, ⁓ and like I said, I know somebody who had to go the IB IVF route because of her husband getting cancer right after they got married. And so like I I hate that that's being potentially, of course, it has not gone through ⁓ everything. So it's not law, but the idea of it not being a possibility for an entire state just crushes me because I know what it's done for me and a lot of the people I know. And and then add the add the the the Bible belt into the whole thing with with what I mean I know I had someone on here and she lives in Nashville. I think she's actually from Georgia. And that's where you are right now. ⁓ but she lives in Nashville and she went to the ⁓ she went it was during COVID too. So she actually they called ⁓ the the pastor and said, We want to know what the church thinks about IVF. And she he said, actually, I think you should talk to this elder at our church. ⁓ he is a doctor and he'll probably have a better like medical bent on this whole thing. They called him. He didn't talk about medical stuff at all. He went straight to you're gonna go to hell. Yep. If you have ideas. And she was like, What? Of course, to her credit. She did not just say, Okay, fine, we won't do it. She stopped going to that church entirely. Because she was like, No, that's that's you didn't even answer the question. ⁓ and and she has her daughter because of it. But it is still complicated for her. It's so complicated. ⁓ And I ⁓ I just wish it wasn't so because it's again, it's already complicated in general to be in this position where you're like, I have to seek modern science. Thank goodness for it, thank God for it. But then people are saying, like, you shouldn't have it and like everyone has just so many freaking opinions. Yes. It I remember when the Tennessee Baptist Convention came out with a and we grew up going to a ⁓ Baptist church and I, you know, grew up and would still say yes. Yeah. So then Yeah, the Tennessee Baptist Commission came out with a statement. I'd have to rem I'd ha like I'll ⁓ misquote it if I try, but essentially it was like against yeah, it was it was like, you know, cautioning or against like a pretty strong statement against IVF. ⁓ and I reposted that and just said, I can't imagine a world without my roads. And this was at the time that I had just had roads. and I had people comment and respond back and like you know, well, you really need to think about, you know, all of these things. And I had to just walk away from social media for a while because I actually and I don't know if it was just like, you know, being in in the Bible belt and people having really charged opinions about it. ⁓ but the other scary thing that I keep watching and keeping an eye on is that there are ⁓ legislators who are also making recommendations that termination of the embryos is all is murder. And maybe there will be people that that you know feel very strongly about that. And ⁓ I also don't know that we are gonna feel comfortable giving our children away to, you know, these embryos away to other families. And so we may choose to donate them ⁓ to science, which I feel their option. A a good an option for good. Like I would like to continue helping other families, helping understand the medical, all of the various components that go into this and allow this to be True for other families. So there's like some good in that. ⁓ but it no matter how you slice it, it's a horrible decision I have to make. But I also now have to think about that there could be a criminal r element to this too. And so then there's like this pressure, like Jeff and I have talked about like we're gonna have to sit down and have this conversation before this, like the the political aspect gets involved in this too much where that could be. So it's just Yeah, it's already a stressful enough thing. ⁓ and then you add religion, you add politics, and it's like and then then it makes you and c yes, and then it makes you not have a safe place like like this to talk about it because you don't know if like as soon as you say you're going through IVF, if you're gonna run into somebody who blatantly disagrees with that choice. And so it is a very interesting ⁓ thing. But again, like kudos to you for cre you know, starting the podcast, having conversations and being brave and bold about it because we need this space. ⁓ and we're gonna keep, you know, fighting the fight for families that need ⁓ to to have this medical option. And like you said, thank God for this option and ⁓ for the lives that we've created through it. Like we're so blessed. We are and the last thing I'll say is that if you I'm I I dare say, I dare say, ⁓ if a commenter that said something of that nature, like you should think about it. A, I'm pretty sure they didn't go through IBF. ⁓ or had, you know, I don't know their if their family status, if they have children, if they want children, any of those things. But I'm pretty sure they didn't go through IVF if that was their response. So kind of disqualified from from that one right there. Just because ⁓ it is a it's a unique club to be in for whatever reason you're in it. And just like in divorce, like there are certain things you just like you can try. You can you can It's more about listening than t than than telling at that point. But then the other part is, ⁓ I dare say that same person, and again, I don't know who this person is, so I'm not like actually talking to anybody ⁓ specifically, but I dare say that person, if ⁓ he or she fell ill, they would go to the doctor and get well. I dare say that if he or she had a broken limb. They would get it set and ⁓ see you know, seek medical attention. Or if they needed a replacement of something, they would do that if they got cancer, they would do that too. And so this whole idea that it's only reserved for the reproductive part, like also organs, you know, also part of the same body. ⁓ if you just look at it from a purely anatomical ⁓ standpoint. Yes. Or why is it so different when we're talking about medical assistance in trying to get pregnant or for in your case, reversing a vasectomy? Or, you know, for for a certain part of the l religious sect it's it's not doing birth control. Like why is this one so taboo when every single other part of the same body is treatable and it's like you're you're crazy pants if you don't seek medical attention. you know, you what if you had said, you know, like if you the next person who's like, ⁓ I had to get surgery on my whatever, you're like, would God want you to do that? Would God have wanted you to you really should have taken time to heal. Yeah. If you'll just a little more you should have pray about it. Thoughts Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You and it's the same around mental health, right? Like we treat me we treat our mind at it's as if it is completely separate from our body when we know that the mind has ⁓ and the gut connection and like they're it's not separate. But yet so it's just you know, culture is not sometimes takes a long time to catch up with science. And this is not this is not to disparage religion. I am a re ⁓ a a faithful person, a spiritual person, a hundred percent. That is not what I'm trying to say. I'm saying that when they cross over into these things, it can really get messy and it doesn't need to because it's already hard enough for whoever's going through this thing. And I just I put it in that perspective only to say, like if you really put them side by side, or all three of them, like you said, the mental health component, if you put all of those side by side and you thought about them on a in a purely scientific way, they wouldn't actually be that different. It's just the moral and ⁓ you know, ⁓ if you it's it's just what we assign to it in a culture and within ⁓ different, you know, even Every single denomination has a different view on the same thing. So it's like not even just religious or not. It's like it's it's a it's very complicated. And it's already complicated. So thanks. It's already complicated. Thanks so much. As if we needed another layer of complexity in in this already complex process. And I'm sure I'm gonna get flack for even bringing this up. I which is fine. Like that is a very sensitive topic. The neck I have another ⁓ friend who's also in a similar boat. Like they had ⁓ if I remember correctly, like really traumatic births that ended in emergency C section, things like that. And so in a in an the decision for them not to have more children was really around I wanna be here and live for the children I have. Yeah. Fair. Yeah. Like fair, completely fair. If you don't know if you can help carry a pregnancy and and make it to the other side, like that is a very valid reason to say, I'm not gonna put in this last embryo or the last whatever it is. Right. And so again, like making the decision or looking at somebody from the outside without all of that information and saying, Of course you should donate those embryos, or of course you should do this with the like there's just more to it. and you know, the next thing I know that a lot of people do in our situation is then to go to like the counseling and just to really get clear on the options. And so we'll probably do that at some point just so that I feel informed, like truly informed. ⁓ and continue to pray about it and see if like the you know, the donation or ⁓ sh you know, if I could live with like knowing my other children were in the world and I wasn't raising them. I Here comes my anxiety again. I envision that these children are gonna end up in an abusive household and they're gonna be like it's gonna be this horrible situation. And then somehow I am gonna still feel like a bad mother that I made the choice to allow someone else to raise them. And so Right. And what's that gonna do to you as a mother to the children who exist who are in your house if you are plagued by that? Like those things that those things are are worth. Contemplating and seeing through to the end of the sentence, you know, proverbially. I think it's a very valid thing to take yourself seriously in this situation. Don't discount how you feel. I I've been saying discount how you feel this whole time. But I have a tendency to do that. Yes. And I see myself in you. Yeah. Well, we make ourselves smaller for other people. And sometimes we don't need to overempathize. Like we have to have boundaries. I did not learn that until Like much later in life. And so I do I have like made a lot of peace. Like if somebody has a comment about, you know, my choices, like that's that's okay. Like it is fine. Yeah. It's fine for them to have ⁓ strong opinions and I'm still gonna live my life and make the decisions that are right for me and my family. And I'm not gonna lose sleep over that because ⁓ yeah, I have two beautiful children and a great family and I'm gonna do what I know is right and I hope that they also feel empowered to do what's right for them. ⁓ and there's so much complexity in this entire process. And so we gotta give ourselves grace. We gotta give other people grace. ⁓ and you know, not be ⁓ too beholden to our own ideas about what it should be or could be. ⁓ Because it's not fair. It's not fair. You do not know what that other person has walked or is walking or why they're making the choices that they're making. ⁓ and that's that's if anybody has anything to say, that's ha that's my response to it. Just have more grace. Yeah. And there's a lot of listening that I feel like we don't do in ⁓ or asking questions. Instead of telling you telling you how how they feel about it, instead of saying like, how's that been for you? ⁓ and and that will open up as opposed to, you know, I'm gonna tell you how it is, as opposed to saying, Okay, so it's a weird response if to say I'm so glad that I have my child, and then someone would be like, You need to think about that. ⁓ what? ⁓ right. That is just the weirdest response. And it clearly means they're not thinking past what has already been decided in their own heads. And ⁓ and that makes people not want to say, I have I I've done IVF in these kind of circles. This that makes women p pretend that they didn't go through something or make them feel like maybe I can't ever talk about it. What would my kid think if I told them This is how ⁓ they they were brought into this world. What will that do for them? I live in a place where that's not a thing. Like every it it is so normalized. I'm so thankful. I'm so thankful for that. ⁓ but I I know how it feels to be in a place where that wouldn't necessarily be the case. And that leads me to I said this was the last thing and we continued. So I'll just say it again. This is so fun. Yeah, this is so fun. but how many people? went through IVF and they've never told anybody outside of their like immediate family or even that. Like how many people ha ha have done fertility stuff and they won't talk about it because of this potential conversation or shaming that they may go through. And that is unacceptable. That is just unacceptable to me. Because if you and I know anything, we did not plan on getting married so that we could get divorced the first time. career. ⁓ I think we're both thankful that we are with the person we are with now, which is great. Yes. But I didn't plan on a marriage failing. I didn't plan on being ⁓ single with a dog who just died and feeling ancient at 31. even though I now I look at back and laugh at that. But it is what it is. I was I was the age I was I was at the time and I felt old. And I will give myself grace for that because that's just how it was for me at the time. But I thought there was no way in the world I would get anything in my life that I actually wanted that there was some reason I wasn't getting that. ⁓ and I was I was paying for choices I made or whatever. And therefore, that led me to think less of myself and and and and play small, I guess you could say. Play a a small life. And then when I finally did meet Marcus and then I moved and I like made a big ⁓ you know, I I a big gesture to move across the country. Yes for someone which felt really, really scary. And I also kind of felt stupid. Like, what if this blows up spectacularly in my face? I I've already been here. I know things can fall apart. ⁓ and then we have fertility issues. And and I'm like, okay, maybe I do deser like I go back to like thinking it was something I did. And no, it's just ⁓ and ⁓ I say this all the time on the podcast because Marcus brought it up when he was on. He said the body's not a machine, you know, and so you can't treat it like one. It it breaks down. Like you break an ankle, which I've done. You ⁓ break a foot, which I've done. I you know, I have really bad I have bad lungs. I don't just the medical assa attention that I receive, ⁓ on a daily basis, but also just you know, throughout my life, like it's never crossed my mind that it was something that I deserved. But the reproduction part, the pr the the the the failing of marriage part, the human stuff, that's where I'm like, something is wrong with me. And that's just not the case. I had to go through it. You had to go through what you had to go through with, you know, your life. And right now you're still clearly going through having to navigate like comments, which I don't like the comments, by the way, if I haven't made that clear. ⁓ I disagree. And thumbs down about thumbs down. Yes. But It just I don't want this for anyone who's going through IBF. And that said, I will end on. first of all, thank you for coming on. I so appreciate you. You're so cute and you are ⁓ can we be friends? Like regular friends. Okay. I'm going to Nashville soon. Nothing less. Yeah. Okay, great. And I know you don't live in Nashville, but maybe we can like be there at the same time. Anyway, thank you for coming on and sharing your story because it is a different angle. from something that a lot of us are feeling and yeah you are talking about stuff that I feel like is har that most people just don't talk about at home. Yeah. ⁓ not literally at h ⁓ in their houses, but like in their communities because they're afraid of the feedback that they'll get and it might hurt or it might sting or it might make them feel less than or like they maybe they don't deserve what they had. ⁓ and that stuff can eat you alive. And I d and I think that's just that's insane. But I know it happens 'cause it's happened to me. Yes. And so I I want this I okay. If you are feeling this way about your past, ⁓ not you, Tiffany, but you listener, you watcher, if you're feeling like you are maybe gonna have to go that route for whatever reason, the IVF route, IUI, any any fertility help, ⁓ and you feel a little stickiness about it because of what you've been told, how you grew up, any of those things, reach out to me. ⁓ in in private. You don't have to come on the show. You don't have to talk about it publicly, but at least talk to somebody about it. Because that could make all the difference in how you show up in your life for the people in your life. ⁓ Tiffany, I don't know if you have the capacity to talk to people, but ⁓ but she clearly gave so much of her perspective here. So you can at least listen to it here. Yeah. Well I was gonna say feel free if somebody reaches out and they have questions from this angle or perspective. Like you're more than sending it on ⁓ more than happy ⁓ to walk alongside, you know, somebody in that journey. ⁓ I've been maybe because I came at it from a different lens, I've been pretty forthcoming ⁓ about it. And I find that I'm, you know, the first to to maybe share sometimes, like, ⁓ we had to do IBF and and then other people I just see the light go on like, ⁓ we did too. Yeah. And and I again I for a long time felt bad because I arrived there at like a high energy cheerful let's go. I'm really excited. And I know that a lot of people in that scenario didn't former UT cheerleader. Yeah. It's it's you know, it was like part of my personality. I can't even like let it go. and so yeah, that's like who I am. I'm energetic and I'm excited. And I like was you know arrived at that ⁓ that journey in a much different place than a lot of other people. ⁓ but it's still to be able to like provide a safe space for a woman that's going through that or has been through that. And just to say, I don't I don't have to tell her how I arrived at that, but to say, I know that journey you went on. You're really brave. Like, you know, I'm proud of you and like you're seen and you're known. Like we need that. And like for ⁓ I wish I had had more support when I was going through my divorce as well, because I went to the same deep dark place. I'm a Christian and I intended to be married and here I am and I'm broken and I've made bad choice like All of those, ⁓ all of those things. And so it is incredibly important that we create spaces like this ⁓ for people to be seen and heard. And fertility and fertility journeys are like they need all of the space. So yeah, whatever journey you're on. I also wanted to say this too. Something you said made me think of this. Somebody told me once that you can't protect your child from their testimony. And that really resonated with me, but it There was one moment when I was driving down the road and I was listening to some Christian kind of worship song and it like also clicked for me. Like, you know, my mom or dad, like they did everything. They were wonderful parents and like raised me in like wonderful schools and with love and compass like you couldn't ask for a better family or place to grow up. And like I still ran into life. Life happened to me and through me with it. Like I know I was a co-creator in the world that I built. ⁓ but like that was also my testimony. Like it was a part of my testimony to be to go through that divorce experience. It's been part of my testimony for to that I was fortunate enough to get to have two beautiful children through IVF, ⁓ and to meet somebody that I love and care about and who loves and cares about me. And have two other children that I get to love as a result of that relationship, which I never would have arrived at. Right. Like and there are days where like our oldest sometimes acts like me and my husband is like, I don't even know how you did in birth him. Like y'all are so similar. and I felt like so bless like we are in in both of them. I love both of them, like both my big kids. And so, you know, like my family couldn't have protected me from my testimony. This is my testimony. And ⁓ you know, you just As much as you want to crawl in a deep dark hole and be sad and woe is me and I'm I'm not deserving, like you are. You're deserving of love and light and hopefully a baby if that's what you want and if that's also not your journey and not the ⁓ the way that the story plays out for you too, like there's still something good. There's still something so, so, so good, you know. Yeah. And that's hard when you're in the in the depths. The deep dark places to know that, but that's what I firmly, firmly believe. Well, and I I I always go back to like if I hadn't gone through that, then I wouldn't appreciate this. And if I hadn't navigated that, I wouldn't understand how important that was. And and and fill in the blank with pretty much every single thing. I can be grateful for all the bullshit. Excuse my French. ⁓ that every that I went through, every single one of them I can be thankful for on the on the back end. They sucked going through it, but they taught me something huge. And I would not, I would not appreciate my husband the way I do had I not had something fail. I understand what it means because I too grew up with wonderful parents who are still together and they gave me everything they could have possibly given me and I still wound up. with a failed marriage, even though I had a perfect mod ⁓ perfectly modeled marriage right in front of me. And that has nothing to do with the fact that I made ⁓ you know, I I had I lived my own life or whatever, but I didn't see the possibility of something falling apart because it had never fallen apart before in front of me ⁓ at home. So I didn't learn lessons that let other people go through the gauntlet. And I yeah, you ⁓ you know, and they learn from like things that they had to go through earlier in life. Well, those things weren't modeled for me. And thank goodness they weren't. I'm not wishing that upon anyone either. But you learn when you learn when you learn, you know? And so I and also when if you ever look at somebody who's older, is there anybody you want to hang out with who's never had adversity? Like that that would be the most vanilla human being. And I don't want my kid to be vanilla. I don't know about you, but that means I gotta let them Go through it, you know? Whatever that it is, I can try my best to I want my son to be a good human, a good citizen, a good friend, a good partner. I want all those things. So I'm gonna hopefully instill that. But what I also am able to give him is that hey, your mom was a divorce person. And you know, like and hey, your mom went through some hard stuff to get you. So like and it still is okay. It's still fine. So whatever you come up with, you can bring it to me and your dad and we can talk about it. And I feel like That is what you want. You want someone to come back to you. That's what you want. Like the ⁓ you can say testimony, you can say life lesson. What however you know someone wants to to put it into ⁓ a word, you know, and or describe it rather. Yeah. What you want is for somebody to have some a story to tell. You don't want them to be like, Well where do I start? Literally, where do I start? You want them to have something to say and Those are the the people who have lived the most interesting lives are the ones you want to listen more to. It's not because they did everything right or everything worked out for them. The that and who would read a book like that either? Who would watch movie like that either? Like so I don't know why we think we have to do that for ourselves and that we have to live this life. But, you know, anxiety girls have to stick together. We yeah, we really do. ⁓ it's like the Alex Warren ⁓ song that's like it's your first time on earth too. Like ⁓ and I think he wrote it about his mom, I think, 'cause if I remember the correctly. Like sounds right. I think that's right, because like his dad passed away and then his mom struggled with drugs and alcohol and didn't maybe give him like the life that that their life started really beautiful and then it it took a turn. ⁓ and I think he just like w I think that that song is about this like it's your first time on Earth too. Like you're figuring it out. And as much as like ⁓ wisdom is lost lost on the youth, right? Like our parents can try to tell us and But there's only there's just you have to you have to live your own journey. ⁓ and there's some things that only time can teach you. And I too arrived at the, you know, this marriage and at IVF and being a mother. I would not have been ready in my first marriage. I was not ⁓ my anxiety was not well managed, ⁓ probably hyperimpulsive, like adding children to that. Would have been a disaster. I am so grateful that I arrived at motherhood after at the season that I did. ⁓ and with and all the yes, I'm in a much different place, a healthier place. It's fun too, like Jeff has been there, done that. He's raised two children. And so even early on when I'm like first time mom and I'm like so anxious, he's like, It's all right. Like I can tell you. I've raised from experience. Yeah. Yes. And he would just like have such a patience about me when like, you know, you're you've got your hormones and like something's happening. Your whole body alarm system is like going off. And he could just be like the calm, like l yes, the calm in the storm. ⁓ because he just had lived it and he was like, You're all right, you're doing a great job. and so like what a yeah, like what a blessing that was. So yeah, we're all we're all ⁓ This is our our first time on earth. We're just doing our best and we're gonna we're gonna have ups and downs. Like that is the human experience. Nobody, no matter how ⁓ big or small, like gets out ⁓ you know, of this life without adversity. ⁓ you just you're gonna face even in the protected, beautiful like childhoods that we had, you know, we I deal with anxiety. Like right. I we like me and my cousin all joke sometimes or like Gosh, we ⁓ really wish we would have inherited the trust fund or maybe you know, something else. But we inherited like hard work, ⁓ you know, good work ethic, anxiety and like a little humor. I know. Yeah. But so it doesn't matter how great your childhood is, you know, you you it doesn't. It doesn't just the humor. My parents did not make me anxious anxious. They did not do that to me. I did that to me. Yes. Somehow. My perfectionism was totally man ⁓ you know, Ashland made and ⁓ and yeah, you you don't have a perfect childhood. That's the thing. You have a you you have a you might have a really good ⁓ place to land, but you're still a person who's gonna go through it. And I think if we can just give each other more space and grace during during both of those and grace. And and and like you said, I'm one of those people who if you if you can't tell because I had this podcast, is willing to talk about it. So I'm usually the person also who says it first, like, ⁓ yeah, we went through IBF. And I say it as a matter of fact because it is a matter of fact. ⁓ I it wasn't easy during it, it wasn't easy coming to it, it was just it's just the way it happened and I'm not ashamed to say it. So if I if if me saying it or you saying it gets somebody else to to feel seen and heard and like understood, so be it. Whatever. We'll we'll keep on ⁓ we'll keep on being that and hopefully other people will even even quietly and silently feel like they're a little bit more normal. ⁓ as if normal's a regular thing. That's not even the goal. But they will feel ⁓ normalized and that that is again, that's the goal. Can I say one more thing? And if it doesn't fit anywhere, feel free to edit it out. But one thing that came up that I let pass by ⁓ was one of my girlfriends wrote, she's a Christian author. She's written a book called Do the Thing. ⁓ her name is Rebecca George, and it's like whatever's on your heart, like go do that thing, go do that project, don't let fear stop you. Don't let all you know, the noise and all the the anxieties and all of these things like keep going at whatever it is that's on your heart. The other book that she wrote, ⁓ and again, not self published, like she is a published author with a two book deal, and I'm really looking forward to what her next book is gonna be. But her second book was You're Not Too Late. And it's about wherever you are, ⁓ like God is working in your story right now to do something for that future. So like back to the like the testimony and telling ⁓ or your your story or whatever it is, like you are not too late for your own life. You and I, when we got divorced, we were not too late for our own life. It was just someone else's season to be married and somebody else's season to announce their gender. reveal in their pregnancy, like but we were not too late for our own life and our own story. ⁓ and so that book has been really, really meaningful to me. She's a really good friend. ⁓ and I don't know if it would help anybody, but if it does that's a great recommendation. Please share that. That would be I'll put a link in the show notes to it. That'd be great. That would be great. Yeah, yeah. Maybe it would touch somebody. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And and and right now as we're as we're speaking, somebody else out there is feeling late. And someone else out there is feeling like, Well, how did they get where they are? You know, and and I remember thinking that like when I would look at people post divorce thinking they're ten ter they were t I'm now ten years out of of mine and I remember thinking these people are five years out, ten years out. That seemed impossible to me at the time. Yes. And I was like, it's probably not for me like to to to get there and have a new life and and have something like what I have, what you have now to speak of. ⁓ and and I think that's the same thing. Like we're in our time right now after going through that time right now. And other people are just starting the harder parts and and not thinking that it's it it they they're gonna get that too. ⁓ what I try to say to anybody who's going through something difficult like that is that like I've been there, I can't tell you what I'm what you're feeling and I'm not gonna pretend to, but just know I felt like there was never any other side. Of the coin for me. I never felt like it. I I was I was more than terrified. I was paralyzed by the fear that this would not ever work out well for me, that I was some exception to some rule that I would get the life that I wanted in any way possible. Like it didn't have to be exactly how I thought my planning self originally thought. I was I was willing to accept any version of it, but I still didn't think I was going to get it. So if there's anything else I can tell somebody in those moments, is that. I was if you feel like out of control and completely despondent about like you'll never get to X, Y, or Z sp spot. ⁓ I felt that way too. And it still did happen for me. Not the way I thought, but it did. And so that's normal. So if you feel like that, that's actually a normal place to be. Yes. That is a completely normal place to be post divorce and or going through anything that brings you that level of grief. And I found myself afterwards ⁓ I I don't know that I was in maybe as dark of a I will never get there. I actually jumped there pretty quickly of like, I deserve like I deserve to be happy. I'm not gonna live my life playing small, ⁓ and not taking up space. And like I remember at one point I was told, like, you know, God calls women to be meek and humble, and you're not meek and humble. And I quoted scripture and I was like, God does not ha call me to have a spirit of timidity and fear. Like I am not afraid of you or anyone else in this world. Like I'm gonna go get it. And then you know, I talk a bit game and then I like, you know, and this like ⁓ you know, I was just super humbled and at the same time, it was all the emotions that you're going through that too, right? Like Yeah ⁓ But I wasn't too late for my own life. I was not too meek and too or not too bold and too bright. Like God gave me the spirit to do something with it and the energy to go do something with it. And ⁓ and the story can and does work out. Again, it doesn't mean that there's not going to be the next thing for me or my family or for you. Like that is a human experience. ⁓ but we've got to be brave enough to share it so that other people know that it is normal. It is yeah. It is what makes us human that we have these, you know, the capacity For such joy and such suffering. ⁓ and so if you are in a season where you are feeling too late for your life, like please know that you're not. This you are right on time for your story. ⁓ and if it's helpful, like that book may inspire, touch somebody's heart. So wanted to share And if nothing else, you have a good s you you're not too late and all these things give you good stories to tell. Great party tricks, you know. Yes. yes. And I'm so confident. I can't between like I've been divorced and I had a baby during COVID and like a nine pound four ounce baby. Like And she's very small, and you cannot see her. She's very, very small. Yeah. And then Scotty was eight nine. So like I'm I'm like, come at me. I can f what can I do? Like there's something about that d IVF journey and having your babies and all that too that like and entering into motherhood, however you arrive at it, like you're now a mother. Mother's In everything you've been through They do. And everything you've been through, you've been able you I feel like you can put that overlay of I got through that, I can get through this. It doesn't mean it's gonna be easy. It doesn't mean that you get to like all of a sudden 'cause when you go through something new and bad, like, you know, gr a new grief or a new challenge or whatever, it feels like the first time that you're going through something hard and you're like No, this is the time that it's not gonna work out for me, or this is the time I'm gonna fail, or whatever, and not make it to the other side. But that's how you felt the last time. So if you can remind yourself that's how you felt the last time when you were under stress or duress or whatever, then just realize like you just keep going and keep keep making choices, whatever they are in whatever situation you're in. And it i you do find yourself on the other side of it, one way or another. It might not be pretty, ⁓ it might but not be sexy. Like you said, but you will find yourself somewhere. And ⁓ so just remember like d yeah, to put that like cost costume back on of like, all right, did this before, remember what you went through and remember how you felt about it? ⁓ yeah, you you made it through. And then, you know, if the more and more you have, the more and more it's easy to tap back into that strength, I feel like Yeah, we always told our kids like action breeds more action in the world. So even if you are in a deep dark place and the Only thing that you can do is take the very smallest step. What is the next step? Even if it's small, what is the step? Because it's the action that breeds the confidence and that gives you the momentum. ⁓ and so yeah, if you're in that like deep, dark, dark, dark place, like maybe maybe going on a walk is the most that you could give that day. Then do that. Then do that. It's better than sitting still and letting everything wash over you and cripple you. And if you have to protect your energy and distance yourself from relationships or put things on the back burner for a season that you loved or that you want to attend to, like it doesn't mean that there won't be a season. Like I think about if somebody asked me what my hobbies were today, I'm like raising my children. Like I go to work and I raise my children. And if I'm lucky, I I decide between whether I'm gonna like shower, have a snack, or work out of the extra like small window of time that I have. And so I'm like I'm you know, across the floor, like I've got paint sitting on the floor and canvases. I don't I'm not really like an artist or anything, but I like to play. And like I haven't done that. And I'm like, I would I want you to do that. I don't like I want you to try to find some time for it. Yeah, yeah. I get like I get going where like a few nights in a row, like I'll put the kids' bed and I stay up way too late and then I have regrets the next day. But I do try to find time for play. But like yeah, you'll get you'll get on the other side and you'll, you know, life is definitely seasoned. You're not gonna you don't have to do it all and you don't have to do it all at once. Like take one small step. ⁓ and if I can be there for any woman that's walked this journey, I'm happy to be and I'm so proud of you again, like so proud of you for telling your first of all, your divorce your story of like divorce and rebuilding, like that was so brave. I was really like it meant a lot to me to hear that. ⁓ because I knew I know what that is. ⁓ and god like gosh, I wish we had been friends through that season because we walked all of that at the same time. So it is written in stone. We are now friends for life. And I hope that we could spend more time together. And I'm again I'm so proud of you for this podcast. And can't wait to see like all that it ⁓ it becomes. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. And you're so gracious to give your time, especially late into the night. So again, trying to get of bedtime. Thank you so much for listening and watching. And if this would help someone else out in your life, ⁓ please share it with them because you know, that's how this thing works. Not like growing the podcast, but like that's how this good stuff happens by sharing and being your whole self in front of people and people feeling comfortable doing so. So for everybody else, ⁓ again, thank you, Tiffany. But for everybody else, we will see you next week. And until then, take care.