Episode 24: What The F*ck Just Happened with Rebecca Lazzelle

Small Batch Sound: Welcome back to Confessions of a Slow Cooker. I'm Ashlyn Blue, and today I want to introduce you to Rebecca Lazell. Rebecca reached out to me and she told me a little bit of her story, and I immediately knew I wanted to hear more. She started out by saying when people think of fertility stories and journeys, they think IBF, miscarriage, infertility diagnoses, and yeah, like check, check, check. But my journey was different. So obviously I was intrigued. And I don't want to spoil any of it ⁓ in the intro, because that's awful. So let's just get right to it. Welcome, Rebecca. Thank you so much for reaching out and for coming on the show. Yes. Thank you very much. And I will add to that that I reached out twice within because I seriously I slept on it. And then I was like, I need, I need to tell this story. I need to be on this podcast. So very, very motivated. Well, I love it. I'm so glad you're here. And it was a quick turnaround. It was like not that long ago that you returned. Yeah, like a week. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. This is great. ⁓ okay, so w I told you before we started, wherever you want to start in in terms of your story, that's where we will start. I have no ⁓ I'll just I'll listen, obviously, and I'll ask questions and we'll go from there. Yeah. So I guess I'll just say like who I am, right? So I'm I'm Rebecca Lazell. I'm a former senior director in Lean Six Sigma process improvement turned author, wellness, wellbeing retreat host, and energy healing practitioner supporting both men and women who look like they have their shit together on the outside, but feel like exhausted, they feel overwhelmed, they feel like they're crumbling on the inside. Yeah. Basically everybody in this sort of like dumpster fire of a world that we live in currently. ⁓ I focus a little bit more on people working through trauma, chronic stress and burnout, which again still is like a very large number of people in the world that we live in. And that is like the high level and kind of d gets us into the story. But I actually want to start a long time ago because I really think that one of the things that we forget about fertility is what we knew and what we wanted growing up. Yeah. Right. And so there are people that are like, I knew from from when I was a child that I didn't want to have children. And I wanted to have kids. I was playing house, having babies, you know, playing house as a as an ⁓ an elder sister. And I always said, because I don't know, I think women maybe do this, girls maybe they don't do this anymore. I don't know. But I grew up being like, by the time I'm twenty three, I'm gonna have three kids. So I'm 40 and I have no kids. So let's just like put a level realism in there. But you know, I'm like growing up being like, I'm gonna have kids. And so I had in my mind that I wanted to have kids. And to me, having kids meant like being pregnant, birthing my own children. And so I think it's worth it's worth starting there because that sort of sets the expectation for like where you think you're going and what you want like in life. Yeah, your fertility journey. I've been thinking about this a lot lately, in terms of like what other kinds of episodes I want to do on the show. And part of that is because your f fertility journey, if you have one or if you don't have one, like that is still a journey. Like if you have I I guess I should say you have the kids or if you don't have the kids, there's still a fertility journey in there. And like you said, it starts well before every single thing that leads up to it is part of that journey too. It just isn't necessarily like in the pursuit part of that journey. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Continue. Yeah. So I grew up wanting to have children. I went to university. I studied abroad. I got married right outside of right out of college. Mm-hmm. ⁓ to a guy from Costa Rica. And I had I was living in Costa Rica at the time and brought him back and we got married and I was young and we wanted to have children. And it just, you know, when you're young and you're starting out, and I would say you have a partner who is not able to contribute in a sort of standard way because of immigration rules and things like that. You know, it was kind of like, all right, we'll do it. We'll do it later. We'll do it later. We'll do it later. When this, when that. And that becomes part of this journey, right? Like, well, we're not ready now. And I think now that I'm older and one of the things I hear people talk about is like you're never really fucking ready. You just do it. Right. Like you just decide like we're doing it now. Yeah. What is ready? Yeah. What does that even mean? It's like a lowercase R, right? And so I was prior, would have described myself as this like type triple A borderline O C D planner person. and my Costa Rican husband. I have no idea that means. Yeah. I mean I do. Right? Like ⁓ my Costa Rican husband was not even he was a type C. I was like C for Costa Rica because like it wasn't even in the the A's and B's. It had nothing to do with what what he was. And so there was a lot of learning. I got an IUD. So I went from Nuvering, you know, like the three weeks in, one week out protection to an IUD because I was like, this it's just easier. ⁓ well, I thought it would be easier. I thought it would be easier. So that it wasn't easier. and we we were together for 10 years. Okay. And we over that not we over that time period. I slowly, very, very slowly decided that I didn't want kids at all. And that was sort of what led me to get the IUD. ⁓ got the IUD without him knowing, because he still was very much like, I want kids. And I was like, I actually like don't want kids. and I thought it was me. Okay. I thought I was making that choice of my own desire and my own volition. And we over a four-year period. Want that that was the first time we used the the D word, the divorce word, until we actually got divorced. And by the time we got divorced, I was like, I can't believe I ever wanted kids. Like fucking what? Kids? Like I really don't want kids. Like actively like do not want kids. And do you know why? Is there like a specific thing? I honestly at the time I was like, I don't I'm not really sure. I was just like, over time I kind of was like, I just don't think I want kids anymore. ⁓ and it never came back to this like I've always wanted kids. I I never really even like second guessed it. So when I got divorced, one of my sisters was like, just so you know, that's not you. Okay. I think you're more sisters. Yeah, I think you're gonna want kids again. And I was like, fuck you. Like, I know what I want. Like, I don't want kids, right? Well, come come to find out that part of it was You know, my my first husband really was into and really wanted this like trad wife, like this traditional stay-at-home wife. And I was the breadwinner and I was creating jobs for myself within my creating new positions at the companies I was in. I was like really climbing the ladder and I was like, I don't want that. And so I think what ended up happening was as the relationship sort of declined and a lot of things within that declined, I thought I was coming to this conclusion that I didn't want kids, but it was that I didn't want kids with him. Yeah. And so that little like qualifier at the end, it took me a few months after we split up for me to be like, right. I I do still want kids. So we split up bullet dodge though. Like if you want kids but not with somebody, like you don't want kids with somebody. Yeah. So exactly, exactly. So we're like, okay, well, good thing we didn't have kids because we got divorced and it was very Amicable and I never have to talk to him again. And it was just like a complete split, right? So it was like very ideal situation when it comes to a divorce. Still hard, of course, but now that I've had to, the second one was a lot harder. You have you have ⁓ something to to compare to. Exactly. So we we split up a few months later. I'm like, actually, I think I do still want kids, you know, and I'm just kind of like dabbling. I started dating ⁓ somebody who ended up being my second husband. And we, you know, we were together for six months. We started saying, I love you. And he's like, on our very first date, our very first date, he says, What do you think about kids? I say, I don't want them. Okay, we haven't gotten to that part yet. We haven't yeah. So like our very first date, I'm like, I don't want kids. He's like, What about other people's kids? I'm like, that's cool. Cause he had a kid. And so I was like, kids in general are cool. I just don't want to like birth them and have them. So I'm like, okay, that's good. Fast forward six months, we start saying, I love you. I'm like, all right, I have to tell you something. And he's like, well, what? And I'm like, I think probably, maybe I kind of might want to potentially have the conversation about children. And it like went with all those qualifiers. And he was like, Yeah, really? And I was like, I think so. And I said, I think I didn't want to have kids with him. And so There wasn't like really a fertility journey. Like I'd been on I you know, I'd had what relationships before my second husband. I'd never I'd been on birth control on and off for a long time. I started birth control, you know, on depot when I was in high school. ⁓ and so I'd done all kinds of things, but never really like tried to have kids. And so now I was like, All right, but I wanna be married. So I was like, So it's gonna be like a while, whatever that looks like. So he goes around telling everybody, including his own kid. We've been dating for six months. And he tells his kid, like, ⁓ yeah, we're, you know, she wants to have kids. And I'm like, You're you're a crazy person starting telling people this already. ⁓ so we get married in twenty twenty. Okay. Which was I guess like two just over two and a half years after we started dating. And right before the wedding, about At the beginning of the month. So like three weeks before the wedding, I got my IUD out. So this was the like, we are trying now to have kids. ⁓ almost. I I'm doing my part to move forward in this like attempt to actually have kids. At this point, all of my girlfriends, my sisters, everyone has kids except me. And I'm kind of like, whatever, like no big deal. What are the books I should be reading? What are the things I should be doing? What the fuck is ovulation? You know, like all of this stuff. Like I'm trying to like learn. I'm getting sent all these really great books. So I'm starting to like read. He it's it's his turn now to to put the foot forward to towards this like we want to have kids together. He had a vasectomy re a vasectomy with his ex without telling his ex. ⁓ So both of us did some kind of like interesting things with our exes and like birth control. So he needed a vasectomy reversal. ⁓ and so that was sort of the first thing on his part where we were like, All right, we gotta do this. So for those that have been part of that in the past, it's not covered by insurance. ⁓ it's not like a huge procedure, like he had it and he was fine like a week later, but it's thousands and this eight it was eight thousand dollars, right at the time. So it's it's a lot of it's an investment. It's an investment of other sorts. Yeah, yeah. It's an investment. There's a percentage chance that it doesn't work. ⁓ you know, so there's like it's an investment. So he has the vasectomy reversal a couple months later. So we're married at this point, and it's like, all right, cool. The everything has to sort of start working again. Like we don't expect sperm counts to be very good, you know, for the first eight weeks. You really can't have sex on it anyway. And then after that, you know, we'll go and get like regular counts. So really now we're in it. I'm reading the books, I'm buying the ovulation sticks. I bought, you know, a basal temperature thermometer. Yeah. Like I'm buying all the things. We're in it. And he starts getting his sperm tests and there's problems. There's motility problems. There's ⁓ what's the other ⁓ I can't remember. ⁓ it's motility and well I mean count. For sure. But yeah. Maybe mobility and motility are separate. There's like ⁓ yeah, motility. Yeah. Okay. So both the M's, we were having issues with both the M's. And there was, ⁓ you know, the doctor was like, Do you drink and do you smoke weed? And he's like, Yeah. So the doctor's like, if you want to have children, you're gonna like you're both older, like you're gonna have to curb that and kind of stop that. And so there was this ongoing conversation about substances, you know, and In general, and kind of like what I'm not telling you what to do, but if we want to have kids, you know, we're working towards that. So about six months after we got married, I was an unconfirmed pregnancy. I knew I was pregnant. I can't, if you women who have been pregnant and not had a positive pregnancy test, know you just know. I was like two or three days late. And then I had a big period and I was like, all right, all right. I know I was pregnant. I was like, okay, this is a great sign. Like in my head, I'm like, okay, cool. Yeah. I can get infertile. I can get pregnant. There's eggs in there. Like I've definitely had non ovulatory cycles before. I have a lot of them actually. I didn't really know what what that was until I started reading and tracking things and being like, Where is the egg this month? you know. So it's like learning all this stuff. So I'm like, okay, cool, I can get pregnant. Next month, same thing happens. So I know that I'm pregnant. Four or five days goes by. And I think I read somewhere like five days late is when you can really get like a positive pregnancy test or like a reliably positive pregnancy test. And it was like that day I was like gonna go buy it and then I got my period. And so I was a little bit more distraught that time. I was a little bit more like, all right, what is going on? Like this is good, but also two times in a row, like this is this is stressful. ⁓ and so we're also getting into like, and I talk more about this aspect in my book, in my memoir that just came out, ⁓ which is called What the Fuck Was That? I don't talk about the fertility stuff, but his journey with mental health and all of that. And so we're just starting at this sort of six month period, we're just getting into like the cycles of his mental health and like trying to figure that out. And so it kind of is overshadowing this idea of. Trying to have kids, but we're still doing it. I'm tracking things. We're not to the point where it's like clinical, and I'm like, you have to come home from work because I'm ovulating right now or anything. But it's like we're we're starting to sort of track things. And so he's getting sperm tests like every few months. And it becomes this weapon in our relationship. Fertility becomes a weapon, which is like I've I thought a lot about. that phrase as I was thinking about this podcast. And it was like we would be doing so good and we'd be like, all right, we're gonna like, we're really gonna try. Like I'd stop ⁓ monitoring my temperature for a little while because I'd get frustrated and we'd change our diet and then we'd try again. And ⁓ it just became this thing like coupled with these mental health episodes and the things that were going on with his mental health, something where we both he'd be like, well, in fights, he'd be like, Well, we're not having sex because I don't have a wanna want to have a child with you anymore. Or I would go to my doctor and request like an up on the Nuva ring because I was like, his mental health is so unstable. I'm not sure that this is like a good time. Again, it came back to this like, what is the idea of ready and what is a good time? But underneath all of it, I was like, I want to have a kid with you. I want to have a kid with you. So we kept trying. ⁓ we did all kinds of woo-woo shit. We did rose ceremonies and light language ceremonies. I'm telling you, we did all kinds of things. And it was like, all right, we're gonna get pregnant this time. And then we would like try for a couple of months, and then it'd be like, all right, what are we doing next? And so finally I I was seeing an OBGYN, and I finally, because I I never thought to mention this, mentioned that like I'm having all these non ovulatory cycles. And she's like, ⁓ well, we need to do like an ultrasound. And I was like, ⁓ okay. So yeah, I'm like, all right. So we're like three years in to the trying, but like, you know, like not trying, trying. Again, we're not like getting clinical about it. And so I go to see a different OBGYN and I get like an ultrasound with contrast. And I actually have one of my tubes is blocked, like completely blocked. Like there's like a there's something in there that is misshaping my uterus. And so the the tech is like what can happen is if the uterus is not the right shape, the egg can't attach correctly. Okay. And so one, the non-ovulatory cycles make sense because you have a blockage, but two, the reason that you might not be getting pregnant still, because people can get pregnant like with only one. w eggs coming out of one side, right? Like is because of the shape of the uterus. And I'm like, and they're like, you have a tilted uterus and all this other stuff, right? So I'm like, okay, cool. I think mine's tilted too. Yeah. I I think they're pretty much all tilted. Also it wasn't in the middle of my body. It's like on the left side. And I was like, what in the world? I've been visualizing you in the middle. Like exactly like all the pictures from the books. Like, what the fuck? So I have to have a surgery, right? To to remove the polyp and or like Whatever this mass, which ends up being a benign like polyp, no big deal. Pretty large. ⁓ not nice that you had to get it removed that it was benign. Sorry. Yeah, exactly. It was benign, even though it was large. Even though I just think that ovary now, I think that ovary is just broken because there's I'm still having a large number of non-alvulatory cycles, which I think is really interesting. But so I had to get that removed. So it's like, okay, all right, let's restart again this process. So that was in 2024. Okay. And I I was like, all right, we're gonna do this again. I had the surgery in July or August. ⁓ we were going on this big trip. He got this new job, and we were like, okay, cool. Like things are settling down. Like, this is gonna be really good. When we get back from our really big trip, let's go, let's talk to the OBGYN OBGYN about IUI. Okay. Cause I was like, why we already know I can get like, I feel like I know I can get pregnant. Right. So something. I'm not like let's not travel. Something is happening. Maybe the motility, the mobility, whatever, but something maybe it's just not getting in there. And like, let's try that. So I was already, I was looking up what that even meant. Like, what is IUI? Because someone recommended it. I actually have a friend, a lesbian couple, and they were like, Well, we did IUI. And I like, What is that? Right. Right. And so again, diving into this is really diving into the recommendation. I would describe it. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Of like, what does that look like and how do you do that and what is like covered by insurance and blah blah blah. Right. So I was kind of diving into that. And then we got back from our our really big trip. And I talk more about the details of this in my book as well. ⁓ and then ⁓ my life completely fell apart and we split up because of a domestic violence incident that happened that October. So it was On the trip or when you got back? So when we got back from the trip. Yeah. So we had this amazing trip. We went we drove to Alaska in a tiny converted like camper truck that was like 200 square feet. Best trip, such good conversations. Like we're getting on each other's nerves and we're like actually conversing about it and getting past it and not exploding. And I was like, wow, I'm so proud of us. Like, look at what Look at us go. Yeah. Look at us go. Like, holy shit. And then we get back, he gets this new job, and a month later, everything falls apart. And so I like y like your your title is what popped into my head. Yes. Literally. I literally was asking the police officers at my house, like, what the fuck just happened? What is happening to my life? Like I I literally broke. The the best way to describe it is is broke. And not in the sort of like Like my brain was actually broken. My emotions were actually broken. Like it's it's I didn't want to be that way, but there was everything was so overwhelming that I was just a broken human. You don't have to go so far into it. Obviously you don't have to go any f any far into it. That's not a real word or phrase, but you don't have to talk about it at all. But ⁓ w can you say anything about what happened that made this Yeah, it was I don't you know, honestly, it's very confusing. The week before, and I I detail the I have the details in the book, but I'll give like a high level the week before he he did a bunch of MDMA. And so for those that are not familiar, that's also called MOLLE. It's like a it increase it either increases the actual production of serotonin in your brain or it like blocks the inhibitors that get the serotonin out of your brain. I can't remember. Like it gets more serotonin in your brain somehow, however it works. And He OD'd. He did six hundred more than six hundred milligrams and a normal dose is like a hundred. Okay. and people who have mental health issues, suicidal ideation, depression, things like that. So when you do MOLLE, it increases the serotonin. Well, what happens at the end is all that serotonin goes away and there's like a crash. So it's like Molly Mondays or something, it's called like on the street, right? But Which basically means I am not on the street. ⁓ I'm like, I barely I I that's why I'm like, I don't know exactly. Like, don't quote me on this. Don't quote me on this. Yeah, yeah. But ⁓ and so it basically all that extra serotonin goes out and you can have a crash. And so someone who is mentally stable doesn't feel very good. Somebody who has issues and histories with mental health issues and depression goes into a depressive episode. Okay. ⁓ not not all the time, not categorically, but he did. Yeah. Okay. And he was in denial about it. I was like, What is happening? Like I was on a work trip. I came back. And I'm like, What what is going on? And we finally kind of figure it out. But he's unable to get himself out of it. And so he kind of is plateauing, trying not to get into this depressive episode. And a bunch of things happen that weekend and he goes and he dives right in. And that Monday he gets home from work. We're eating dinner. And I literally said to him, So I made this chicken coleslaw meal. And the colesla black radishes in it, which if you've ever ever had a black radish, they're like super strong. And these were very spicy. Okay. And so he douses his whole plate in mayonnaise. Literally like a spiral of mayonnaise around his whole plate. And I'm like- Is that normal? Well, I said For him, I guess. No. Okay. And what I said was, ⁓ so you're gonna put mayonnaise on everything? And I did kind of say it like that, like with a little bit of like. Incredulous sort of like Yeah, my husband does not like when I put steak sauce on his perfectly ⁓ seasoned steak. So I'm just kind of like the taste of it. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Yeah, right. Well, and I just like the taste of what he made. I just like the taste of Prefer the steak sauce. Yeah, yeah. And I kind of was like, I don't know what's in slaw normally. Sometimes I've seen put people put mayonnaise in it, but this doesn't happen. And so I said, There's no mayonnaise in that slaw, and he lost it. Don't tell me what to. Fucking do you controlling blah blah blah blah blah and throwing plates? He ended up flipping the dining room table over, which was something I never in my life thought I would see. You see that shit on television. Yeah. In a movie, but not like in real life. And I don't actually even know how long this whole sort of ordeal lasted. It could have been five minutes, it could have been 30 minutes. It's zero I concept of time. ⁓ in the end, he You know, we fell on top of each other and he was like crushing me, like purposefully, like putting his weight on me and I was choking. He grabbed my head and was like shaking and spitting and screaming in my face. And then he kicked me a couple of times. And so during all of this, like at the very end, I I'm like, he's still going crazy. And like something in my brain is like, you know, we're getting a divorce now. Which is probably not the right thing to say. But like immediately I was like, You crossed a line that we agreed on when we went on. our third date, which was no physical islands. So this is yeah, this is over. So his kid is there, his kid goes to the neighbors, they call the cops, cops come, my kitchen and dining room and living room are a total mess. I don't know where my dogs are like my life has just completely changed. Yeah. And so when I read something up, I will say when I read like your a little bit of what you sent me in one of the two emails. I I did not see that. So my my ⁓ my like, ⁓ my gosh, they those are real. I didn't know this was coming. Yes. Yes. All right. So keep going. I went into this complete state of like disconnection and grief. Now I understand why you said things were broken. Yeah. I get that. Things were literally just the everything was misfired, like no connections in my brain. Like people would talk to me and I Couldn't even understand what they were saying the first couple of days. It was like words literally just like my system was just fucking broken. And the grief was so real. That's actually the first chapter of my book is called grief. And it was the first thing I wrote. And it makes me cry now, even when I read about it, because I never I didn't know what grief was before this. But the interesting part was not just grieving the relationship. Very shortly after I went to therapy for my first appointment. And of course, like there was a lot of therapy happening after this. Yeah. Yeah. But I was like, I brought up the kid thing. And that's why this is like relevant here is because I brought up the kid thing and I was like, we tried for four years to have children. And now not only do I have to grieve this life that we were on the way, these dreams, these expectations that we were on the way to. be building together and also the like shock of our relationship ending in this way that includes a protection order where we can't contact each other. Like it's just like no contact, which is a very weird way to end a relationship. But also now these other things c bubble up with grief and the kids was one of them. And so I I had it ⁓ I mean, healing isn't linear linear. We all know that. I saw this video the other day where it was like expected line for healing, but really it's like this. You know? Yeah. And and that's that's how it was. And the kid thing showed up regularly in that mourning, in that grief process, right? So it showed up as we tried for four years. I'm never gonna have kids. I'm never gonna be able to have kids now because he was my person. He was the one that I wanted to have kids with. Because I still feel like now I didn't know what I wanted when it came to kids. I didn't I I thought I didn't want to have kids with my ex, and then I did want to have kids, but now I'm like, was it because of him? Like, what do I actually want? Like, yeah. When have I spent time sitting down and thinking what I actually want? And I watched Survival of the Thickest, which is like a freaking amazing show. I think it's on Netflix. I don't know about this. ⁓ my gosh. I don't know her name. She's a comedian, I think. She's hilarious. It's a great show. I think it's the last episode of the first season. She is telling her friends that she's gonna do, like she wants to have a kid and she wants to do IVF by herself. Okay. And I was like, wow, that's not even something I thought of. I don't do I want that. You know, and so it became this whole different conversation, which was like, fuck. I don't get to have kids now. I'm never gonna have kids. To do I even want kids anymore? I'm not really sure. Did I ever even want kids to begin with? Was that some societal white picket fence American dream thing that I never even got to choose for myself and was, you know, pushed on me? Like it was a very confusing. I mean, there was a lot of very confusing things, but the kid thing throughout that grief process was very confusing. And so I'd go, I was working through that. I was working through. Trying to stay at my job while going through this grief, ⁓ and going through this mental health journey of my own. and it all ended up in depression, unfortunately, and suicidal ideation. And that was a place I had never been myself. Okay. And then the kid thing comes up again, which I don't deserve to be a mom. I'd be a shitty mom, blah, blah, blah. You know, all of these things. And so there's this complicated. monologue, internal, not even on my voice, because I would say suicidal ideation is like not even me and it's not you when it happens, right? It's like something else is happening inside of your brain. Right. And it was just very, very hard because I was like, I don't even know what I want anymore. But I would see, I would go somewhere, I would go to a Christmas market. I'd see all these kids with their families and I would lose my shit. I I'm even getting teary-eyed about it now, right? Like I would just Cry and cry and be like, I'm never gonna have that because I'm forty, right? And it's not realistically I could have that, but you know, you're already they're already calling you geriatric when you're 35, right? You're like, what is with this terminology? Like, wait a minute. It doesn't help old and useless. It does not help. So I'm like, well, now I'm 40. Stats are like way higher for problems with birth and stuff like that at 40. I'm like, or over 40, but I know people. I I know a woman, you know, at my old job who had a a birthed child when she was forty six. So I'm like, it can happen. But I'm stuck in these mental cycles where it can't happen and I can't can't see that and can't get out of it, right? I go to the Czech Republic and it happens. 'Cause that's what normal people do. Yeah. They just go to the Czech Republic. Right. Yeah. I go to the Czech Republic for work. Let me clarify that. That was hilarious. So I go to the Czech Republic and I thought you were gonna say like I go to Walgreens. No, no. I go to the Czech Republic for work in in in February, in January, February timeframe. And I'm there, like, doing a video call with one of my girlfriends. And the it happens again. You know, there's all these women with like the covered up baby carriages in the wintertime. And I'm just like, I Can't like I don't know what I'm gonna do. Like, I've always wanted children. And of course, my girlfriend's like, that is not a you now problem. That is a you later problem. Like, you have a lot of other things that you need to get healthy and you need to do before we can have that conversation. But I I was so, I was not envious. I was so jealous. So, like, I'm not a jealous person. I don't have a lot of experience with jealousy. The like, you have it and I want it and you don't deserve it, I deserve it, rather than the. you have it and I also want it, right? Like the good kind, like the end envy instead. But it was not something I was really familiar with. And so I get home, I'm working through therapy, I'm doing other things. And it's a few months even later, I think it's like June, May or June. And I at this point I'm having panic attacks. Just in my healing process in general. I haven't come back to this conversation of what we're doing with kids because I got again my nervous system is like completely out of control. I'm off work. I've taken FMLA because I literally cannot keep my shit together at work anymore. I can't do my work. The balls are dropping all over the place. And I'm just like not functional as a human. So I'm like, I need some time. So I take some time. It's like May or June. I'm in, I think it's May. And I'm in Ohio. I'm at the zoo with an aunt and an uncle and their grandkids. And it's in the middle of the week. So there's Children everywhere. Everywhere. Thousand mostly children at the zoo, accompanied by a small number of adults. And there's this grandma and grandpa. And they're they're cool. They've got piercings. He's got like a slayer t shirt on. He's got long hair. Like they're not that old, but they've got a little bit of gray hair. You know, you're like barely in their sixties. And and I spiral off the deep end. I I because this this thought, if you never have kids, then you're never get to be a grandparent either. Right. I hadn't had that thought before. And so now I'm having a panic attack at the zoo because I'm actually had one at the Denver Zoo recently. It's the worst place not for the same reason, but it's not a great place to have one. It's a horrible place to have a panic attack. So finally I'm I'm good enough at having panic attacks. I I've had enough panic attacks where like I have there's one shred of like reality that stays with me, and I'm like, call your sister. So I call her and she can help me. talk get down from sort of the ledge. I was already I literally, as soon as I said the, ⁓ well, if you don't have your own kids, you can't be a grandparent. I literally saw like a stick figure of myself dive off the cliff in my brain. And I was just like, ⁓ we are this is gonna be trouble. Call your sister, call your sister. So I'm still having this complicated like grief associated with like, now that there's not a man in my life that I love, I can't have a kid. I see this show where she's like, ⁓ I'm gonna do IVF on my own. And I'm like, Would I do that? Do I wanna do that? Like, what does that look like? I know it's expensive and outside of sort of the cost situation, I'm kind of like, Well, do I actually wanna birth a child? I think that's the real question. Right? A lot of questions. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I I actually came have come to the conclusion since now, like it's been about a year since that sort of panic attack at the at the zoo. And I've done a lot of work and I'm finally in a place of gratitude for a lot of different things. But I've also in a place where I've now had time to sit with myself and actually say, I want to build a baby inside of my belly. Do I want to birth that baby? And I feel very indifferent about that experience, which I think is That's telling. Not something I expected and also very telling. Because I know I know women. I I I know a woman, you know, an old friend from high school who was like, I want to birth a baby. Like I want to have the baby and be pregnant and have that experience. And I can appreciate and do also feel like I'm a little bit of FOMO with like I don't get to be part of the club of like women who have had that amazing traumatic potentially experience of being able to grow a human inside of you. But I'm so indifferent about that part now that I actually don't know. Like somebody asked me, because I'm dating. I mean I'm not dating. I'm trying to date. Let's say that. I'm trying to date. I'm getting I'm putting myself out there to date now. Right. And there's like, you have to be able to say like, what do you want with children? Right. At this age, at yeah, i I as as you get older, it is something you have to broad fairly soon. Yeah, and you like need to know. It's not fair to not know, right? And so talking to somebody and he's like, Well, what what do you think about children now? And I'm like, I'm kind of indifferent. Yeah. And he's like, That doesn't seem good. And I was like, Well, let me let me explain it to you. So I don't think I need to birth my own children. Yeah. But if it happens and it's healthy, I would be okay with that. Mm-hmm. So I'm not like I'm well basically what I'm saying is like I don't want to be on birth control, but I'm also not gonna like track my shit. Mm-hmm. And I'm not gonna and I'm just gonna live my life the way I live it. And if I happen to get pregnant with a person that I love, that you know, great. Right. And if I don't, that's fine too. But I know that I want children in my life. I wanna be a mom. Even if I'm not a birth person, right? Like carrying a child around. And I also don't feel this strong pull to have like my genes. You know, my mom was like, but you're so smart and you're so pretty. And I'm like, it's true. But also like, I'm not like needing having this like primal desire to have my genes propagated into the world. And so I'm like, so if I get pregnant, cool. But I do, I am very interested in adoption. you know, guys with much younger children. ⁓ if they've got older children, I'm like, I kind of still want to do the young kid thing, you know. I hear you. I hear you. Or, you know, foster to adopt or something like that. ⁓ and so I was telling somebody, I think maybe my mom, sort of about this as well, after I told this person and was like, ⁓ I think I think I kind of made the decision like on my own about how I feel about children and what I want in my life. And I was telling my mom, And we were talking back about that sort of when I was a kid and I kept saying I was gonna have children and she's like, You always said you would adopt children. ⁓ And I was like, I I forgot. Like I don't even now. I'm like, Did I? I don't remember. But she's like, Yeah, you did. You would always say, like, I'm gonna have three kids and I'm gonna adopt kids. And I'm like, I don't think kids also normally are saying that, right? They're like, I'm gonna have a family and they don't unless they're adopted. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. If they have like have that and I don't have it. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was like Interesting. So there was like an unconscious recognition when I was a child of what I wanted. And then I as I like lived this life of I want kids, now I don't want kids, and I want kids, and it's now unsafe to have kids. And now I don't know if I fucking want kids. This like journey ends up coming kind of full circle back to like, well, I I do want them in my life, but I don't necessarily need to birth them out of my physical body. And so For me, it's been insightful because now I truly feel like I am aligned with that, as opposed to that being again, some sort of like externally impressed upon me white picket fence dream of a nuclear family where it's like, actually, I mean, I've been a stepmom. I fucking know how hard that shit is. Like, don't worry. And I would be willing to do it again with the right person, right? And and it's a lot about that relationship as well. But this journey. of fertility is ending with me maybe not having my own biological children. Yeah. And being okay with that. Right. You know? Right. I think all of this is really good. I I mean I was as you've been talking, I've been thinking, okay. Sorry, my dog is normally I love it. I'm like, he's so cute. He's normally not here. ⁓ I throughout so I don't know if you know my story b besides like my fertility part, but I got divorced at thirty almost thirty one. Yeah, yeah. And so at that point my dad actually asked me th I wasn't dating I don't think. Like if I was, he didn't know. You know, like it wasn't one of those things where it was like a relationship. Bring them up to the kids yet. No. Yeah. Not yet. And and so I I think I wasn't. But he was like, would you know, I know you want to become a mom. Like it was clear to everybody that I wanted to be a mom. I was I I too, every like Easter was my hardest time. I don't know why. It was like I go not because of like the church part of it. It was like there's something about that particular holiday that is like super Child friendly, I guess, maybe the Easter egg hunts and like things like that. And anyway, I would always it I would dread Easter. And I would dread Christmas time. I would dread every time where there was like a a child component, like where it was in like something that that in my childhood I remembered fondly or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And so he said, like, would you still want to become a mom even if you don't meet anybody? And I remember, if if I recall correctly, and he can he can disagree with me if he wants to. But I remember being like it was a quick yes. ⁓ interesting. But then a quick like I felt like I'd been punched. The same thing. So I knew yes. I was like, yeah, I'll do this. I wanna be a mom more than more than I don't, you know, more than I want it to go in the in the in the correct way that I had always assumed. And I've already flown past getting married at twenty three. Like my parents, I've already flown past, you know, the children thing. So like what's the plan now? and at this point I also just didn't think I was worthy of ⁓ of of finding anyone to to love me anyway. So but I always knew the mom part was good and I surprised myself in that moment when he said that my quickness to say yes, but then also be like almost ⁓ my my breath taken away. Cause I was just like, shoot, that could be real. Like actually that could be the the way this ends up. I know how I feel because I didn't hesitate. But I that's scary to me. You know, like that's just not what I thought. And I had to kind of reconcile with that, ⁓ that conversation for a while. I never wavered. I never I think where you and I differ, I mean, we differ in a lot of ways. We're different people, but like where where you and I differ in in this in the story is that I didn't I don't like it never even occurred to me, even with someone I ultimately got a divorce from That I didn't want kids, like it w I didn't have all these conversations in my head. It was like, I want to be a mom. Duh. I just want to be a mom. And when my dad asked me that right after the divorce. And then when I ⁓ met Marcus, and then we talked about it right off the bat, because that was on my mind as it was on yours, or is on yours, I guess. ⁓ and he said he'd be fine to be the fun uncle, because he had sort of come around to the fact that it's probably I'm probably not gonna meet somebody about. probably not gonna happen for you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so it's interesting what t what time will do and like you can kind of get used to the idea of maybe like chiseling down the expectations you originally had and you'll get okay with those. ⁓ but I was pretty adamant. I was like I want to be a mom. Like I'm not gonna I had learned from ⁓ enough failed relationships prior to my divorce, you know, prior to getting married and divorced and then after, like I don't need to be ⁓ making myself sound better for this person. It's I gotta go ahead and tell him what I want because yeah if I tell him the opposite just so he likes me, that's not gonna work out later. You know, when he finds out, no, no, she really wants to be a mom. ⁓ and so I made myself pretty clear. And ⁓ then we got, you know, we got married and it was pushed off like the, you know, let's just be married for a little bit. Great. And then we got last time. Yeah. Yeah, let's have and I got that. I understood that. I was also like, okay, my my clock, but But okay, geriatric. So I'm I'm geriatric. Let's but let's let's let's hurry this up. And and then, you know, then then we have trouble. And we have we go through e the the month to month ⁓ thing where it's I don't even know if I'm pregnant. Like I I don't I don't know what it feels like. I don't I don't have that intuition that you're talking about. So I'm just like, okay, what's wrong? What's wrong? What's wrong? And then I start to think, you know what if we do have to go through other mechanisms? It's just not what we thought we were gonna do. And he was hesitant about doing it because he thought you're probab you know, it's probably just gonna happen when it's gonna happen. ⁓ ultimately we did IVF, so we we we did have to go down that road, but it we're going down all of these roads, I guess what I'm getting at, requires so much in terms of conversation. And you learn so much about yourself when you ask a question, you get a response from your ⁓ your partner. ⁓ or you're being asked like through my dad, like what you actually want. and I remember my husband saying, like, I don't know if I want to go these other routes. If it doesn't work here, like I don't know, I don't know. That's a perfectly acceptable answer to not know, by the way. It feels like in the moment I wanted him to know. But as I reflect, I'm like, you know what, you you don't have to know what you want because we're not there yet. And if I've learned anything from fertility, it's that as time goes on. Because your life goes on, you get older, you I don't wanna say you necessarily get wiser. Sometimes you regress a little bit ⁓ because of circumstances. Yeah. But you change. Yeah. You you change and it just like you do with everything else in your life, it it gets refined in its own way, in its own time and ⁓ in its own mechanism. And so by the time we got to that, like, okay, so I we can't keep doing this forever, w what would it look like afterward if we decided to stop this this ⁓ this IBF part? What about adoption? ⁓ and my I guess y again, like where I'm going with this is it never occurred to me just to say like I'm indifferent. I but I think I was saying I'm indifferent the whole time. I was like, I just want to be a mom. I literally so I guess yeah, it's so it's so weird because I never thought of myself as indifferent, but I was. I was indifferent about how it happened, how I got there. I just knew I wanted to get there. And ⁓ I think kind of that was probably the ⁓ the healthiest thing about my entire life. Is that I just knew one thing and one thing only. I just want to be a mom. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, it was a clearist. I've I've wish I've been wishy washy on everything else except for that one thing. So in that way, we are the same. Yeah. And it's it's interesting because I have made this huge transformation in the last ten years from, like I said, this like psychotic. Triple, triple A O C D, crazy logical only person to like this much more intuitive, much more nurturing. I can't even say, I can't even believe I'm using that word to like describe myself. Like literally, I like my first husband, it was no questions. Like I was not going to be a stay-at-home mom. Period. There was like no, no question. Logically it made sense, financially it made sense, like everything it made sense. Second husband. There was like a little bit of a question. Like financially, it still made sense. And like I was still very much like, I want to move forward. I, you know, I'm on track to be like a VP and a president and like in this company. And I want to like do that because I'm excited about it. But then Sounds you were good at it too. So it's like right. I was making jobs for myself. But then when everything sort of fell apart, like I'm not that same person anymore now. And I'm an energy healing practitioner. Right. And that takes a very different kind of constitution than a senior director in process improvement. Like there's a lot of very similar things and the modality that I do in my energy healing is because I like efficiency. So there's like a little bit that sort of carries over, but it's so it's so different now that the the going from I want to have kids to I not want to have kids like made sense. I was like more of a black and white person, like It was more logical. Like I always used to say, like, my emotions process this way, and like they come out my mouth before they even get down here, you know? And I don't say that. That's not true anymore. Like I'm much better at talking about emotions and expressing my emotions and understanding and processing and all of those things. And like, of course, I have a lot of learning and growing to do because they're just humans and we all do. But it's like when I spoke to this guy specifically about this sort of indifference, he's like, you can't be indifferent. And I was like, well, I can because what I'm actually saying is like I'm willing to spend time with this new person that I love and get to know them and get to know what they want and figure out what our life is gonna look like and try, you know, not not try for a little while. And then at some point there is I am, you know, setting the expectation that at some point I am gonna want to go forward. And I don't know, maybe I'll change my mind. About being pregnant. Yeah. Maybe, you know, maybe now I feel indifferent about that particular aspect of being a mom because I'm still healing my nervous system and because I still feel unsafe sometimes. And it's a lot on your nervous system, just exactly. Yes. Right. And so my body is telling me, don't do that. It's not going to be good for you. And I'm like, okay, maybe it will never will be the right thing for me, but maybe in the right environment with the right person, maybe it will. I am also open to adopting on my own. I'm not in a position, you know, I'm building my business, I'm growing my business, I got my book out, like I'm doing all this cool stuff. I live with a roommate. I'm not in a position right now where I want to and and can offer that. But I also know that by myself, I I am willing to adopt. I don't know again, I don't know if I want to do IVF on my own. I come back to that survival of the thickest episode and she's so passionate about wanting to have this kid on her own. And I'm like, I want to. Mother a child, but I don't know if I want to birth a child on my own. And there's nothing wrong for women who want to do that. Like, do it, get it. Amazing. For me, I just want the children in my life at some point. And so that to me is like the indifference is like also is it acceptance? Is it indifference? Is it maybe a little both lowered expectations so that I'm more open to whatever the possibilities are? Like it's like a variety of things, but it's less like I must do this, and more like it could be a variety of the let's pick from the platter once it's to me. That sounds like the most the healthiest approach to this whole thing. And one that like we're hoping we get to in life in general. Yeah. It's like, I mean, as a as a ⁓ I wouldn't say recovering perfectionist, but I'm not recovering really. as as a type A as a type A person. I guess I am recovering. Yeah. I'll just say I'm recovering. Yeah, yeah. I'm not like I'm not ignorant to it. No. Yeah. But I'm like I'm a type A, I'm a planner type. and I mean I had to get beyond that during my ⁓ for for for purposes of of fertility. I had to be like You do not get to choose. It's so unhealthy when this when this works and how this works and what it's gonna look like. ⁓ so stop because you're actually not helping yourself. ⁓ you're hurting yourself, you're hurting your mental health, you're hurting there's so many things that like these missed expectations when you're like, but I thought this and then it doesn't happen, and then you you get all in your brain and it's like we just gotta we've gotta let go. You do, you do, and so I think you're actually in the healthiest place. right now that you'll be in in terms of just like you said, I don't know if it's even lowering though. I don't know if I'd use the word lowering expectations. I would say kind of being abandoning. Detachment from Yeah. Like like letting them go because what you're saying is in the screen, I will let anything come into the screen that comes into the screen and I'll deal with it when it gets here. Yeah. ⁓ okay, that's actually the best way to go about life. That doesn't mean you don't have standards. That doesn't mean you don't have ⁓ idea. Things that you must need. Yeah. Like like you you that doesn't just say you just come and just hope for the best. What did I hear the other day? Hope is not a strategy. Well, and I know that very well. but you know so it's not it's it's not like okay you're you have no more expectations or you're letting them go and therefore n you have nothing in your brain anymore. It's not an a a a zero sum thing. But what it is doing that I think is really good for you based on everything I've heard Today, and I'm not coming at this from like a therapeutic side of things. It's just more. Okay. I'm so good at this. No, I'm not. But but but for from what I'm hearing, instead of like throughout the entire entirety of your story, it was a back and forth of do I, don't I, should I, shouldn't I, will I, won't I? And it was like you said, very black and white. And then now I disagree with this guy that it doesn't sound good or that you can't be indifferent because the indifference is not about the the being a mom part. The indifference is not about the child part. Yeah. It's the mechanism, it's the how, it's the when, it's the with whom. and and that's you know, like you said, with somebody or not. And so to me, that just opens up all the possibilities for it to actually be good for you. And something that you said earlier and said like I'd wanted this with your second husband, you didn't want one with the first, ultimately, you did with the second. And it was something that you said about like afterward. ⁓ I guess my I I had a question and it was you didn't say like, I'm so glad I didn't have a kid with him. You kind of lament it sounded like you still lamented the fact that you couldn't have a kid with him now that your life had been blown up. And you could clearly see like the before this event and the after this event. And that was fascinating to me. Do you you know, do you wish still that that could have worked? Let's dig in. That's my hot potato, actually. Okay. Okay. Well then let's hot potato it. Yes. So the hot potato was at least you didn't have kids with him. Mm. And I mean, I went there in that very first therapy session a week after everything happened. I went to ⁓ Like just through all the things, I'm telling the therapist what happened and then I said, Thank the fucking universe I didn't have kids with him and then I said, And no, I didn't have kids with him you know, and I broke it, but it's like damn released, like, ⁓ my god. So it was this constant like And I did it to myself, and it was just harder when other people did it. Yeah. Because I wasn't all the way there. Logically, my brain was like, you know, this is a good thing. You tried for four years, and the universe works in mysterious ways. And if you'd have had to kick together, this would have been attachment for the night the rest of your fucking life with this abuser. Like, so logically I was there, but my system and my heart were not there at all. And because there was this dissonance, like in my own body. When people did that, I like had to go away and just cry because it just was it was too hard. Do you think it was like too like you said, like it was you hadn't fully it wasn't a fully formed independent thought at this point. It was something that was like kept on washing over you, like thank goodness, thank goodness. But then when someone else said it it's kind of it's like it's like fully wrapped up in a bow and you hadn't fully gotten over it. It's It's this conne it's this difference between like the conscious mind and the subconscious and like our nervous system and everything that happens up here because I'm a very logical person and I will always be that way, even though I'm getting more nurturing and more intuitive. Up here I was like, Thank thank everyone. Thank every energy that ever existed that I didn't have kids with him. And down here I was like, Now I'm never gonna have kids again. And that's so interesting because it's as if you this is the last you've had been married twice now. Like and it's not immediately married again, right? Yeah, like you're already this decrepit, yeah. Yes, exactly. And so it was this it was like it was all happening here, I'm pretty sure, because like your subconscious is not black and white and like your your con your conscious mind is, but it was like this weird disconnect, or it like maybe left brain, right brain, and it was like left brain was like well and you just experienced a physical trauma. Yes. That's scary in general. So I'm I'm sure that has so much to do with it because you're not able I'm sure you were like, you know, zoomed in so hard on what you use it what what the fuck does happen. Yeah. And and it's hard to not ⁓ think that like this is my life now for and forevermore. I felt that way ⁓ that. Yes. I felt that way post divorce one divorce, ⁓ and not that sort of Crescendo. Yeah. Yeah. Where no that sounds awful. I I'm so sorry you went through that still. Sorry, my nose is itching. It's okay. And so it went, and then it was what you said. Like I would do a lot better, and then I would see family, and then I would be shitty, and then I would go and get invited to a baby shower and I'd be like, Yeah. Or I filed the divorce paperwork and there was a checkbox that said, Are you pregnant? Do you have kids together? And I'm like, No, thank the universe. And then I'm balling again, you know? Yeah, no, I'm Happy and sad about it all at the same time. And so it was wrapped up in this really convoluted web of Isn't it crazy how a form can feel like like a mean trick? ⁓ when like it like a just a form. It is an inanimate object that can like just remind you of the the life choices you either made or didn't get to make. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so it was really just convolutedly wrapped up. And so I'm in a place now and I was always, there was always a part of me that knew and understood and had gratitude. Yeah. I thought gratitude. I didn't feel gratitude. If that makes sense. It does. Because I I knew it. And then I was having these like panic attacks about not being able to be a grandparent, you know? And so it was very complicated. And when people said it, there was something about that Even though it didn't come from a place of judgment, it came from a place of gratitude and sympathy and empathy. Like it came from these good places. I couldn't hear that in the beginning. Because everything I think honestly the word, the phrase at least, just doesn't give good stuff on the other side. Maybe that's I I mean, 'cause usually it's said, like you said, fine intention. And I've talked a lot about this with everybody on the podcast. Yeah. Or You know, well at least. Like there's a little ⁓ I don't know minimizing patronizing. Yeah minimizing. And it and it and it it doesn't have to be even in that tone to feel it anyway. And so I'm like there's At least you didn't have you know, at least you didn't have peace with him, you know. It even was that a couple times and I'm like, fuck you. Right. No, I think there's something just about that phrase that just is never really a good one. And that's not to say that it couldn't be given with good intentions and and love even. Yeah, exactly. But there's I don't know, there's something about about it that I I can't like I'm I'm just trying to think of in this moment. What would be taken well with well at least I think I don't know. No, I don't know. Nothing. I don't know because I I mean maybe it's not even the phrase. It's when the phrase is like when you get to be the recipient of that phrase is in the aftermath of something really minimizes everything else that happens to sort of highlight this one thing that like you probably are consciously aware of, but it's just not working. Yeah. I think it I think you're not in the right s the who the the recipient of the of the well at least fill in the blank is not in a good mindset to begin with. ⁓ and then add on that the person who's a giving the phrase is in a better place. Yes. Naturally. Whatever that looks like. Just by virtue of where you are and where this person is. Yeah. That separation between my life just blew up in one way or another, or it's not what I thought it was gonna be versus your life. I have no idea what else is going on in your world, but but that phrase kind of puts a divider between the two of us. I think that may be it. Maybe not the actual words themselves. I don't know. I'm I'm thinking about this in real time if you can't tell. Yeah, no, and it's like I knew it wasn't from a place of judgment. Yeah. But it was the same. I had the exact same thing happen when I told people what happened. And they would say, At least you're not in the hospital. The at least. The at least. Yeah. Mm-hmm. At least you didn't have to go to the hospital. And it was like and I and I talk about this in one of my like online videos, which is like about how to help people with grief. And it's like, don't come to a conclusion. with that person before they come to that conclusion. And when they start saying, I'm when I when I was actually saying, I'm so grateful that I didn't have a child with him from a calm place and not a place of trigger and and all of this, like that's when you can say, I know, at least you didn't have a kid with him. Yeah. But it's like you have to as the external party. And I think it's confusing. I was pre I was being confusing to myself, but also to the people around me, where I'm saying Thank God, you know, thank the universe. I didn't have a kid with him. And they're like, Yeah, at least you didn't have a kid with him. And then I'm Don't you say that? Yeah. You know, it's like, what? And so, but it was like this. I wasn't all the way. I wasn't coming from a place of gratitude when I said that. It was a place of logic. And so when I actually got to the feeling and that space and that container of gratitude, I was able to then receive that information as people intended it. But prior to that, for nine, ten months. It was a trigger every single time. Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard. You don't know. You don't know when you're gonna trigger people. You meet someone and you're like, ⁓ yeah, I didn't have and then you meet a stranger and you tell your story and then they're like, At least you didn't have kids with him and you're like, I will give you grace because you don't know me right now. Right. Move along, move on. And so it was this really confusing situation because I was telling people they were responding in kind and then I was being triggered and it was like, it's it's just It's just really it was it's just really hard. When you're going through something, this is just how it feels. It feels it's confusing to you. You feel I mean it It like I I was t thinking about today because I want to do an episode on perfectionism. ⁓ girl. I ha yes. I have the person for you. And it has nothing to do with fertility. Like it does, but it doesn't. And so w I want to talk about it outside of fertility and the life that I led with that perfectionism going into life, going into relationships, going into what ultimately became fertility with somebody. Yeah. Yes. And then when my life blew apart. It I didn't know what to do next. What do I do with all this? Shrapnel. What do I do with with it's not because it had nothing to do with whether or not I still wanted to be married or in this relationship. It was just like l like all the stuff around me had fallen down. I'm just looking through rubble. I don't know what I want to do with this role. Do I want to keep give it away? Do I want to put it back together? Like do Do I want to incinerate it? Right. Do I w I I mean do I want to smash this particular ornament? Yes, actually. ⁓ that one? Okay, you can do that one. You know, like I had things that I I was it was clear, but the bigger stuff, the bigger life stuff, I didn't know what to do next because I didn't see it coming. I didn't plan for this and I'm a planner. Exactly. So when I got to that point. Things that I had never ever con contemplated being something I would even wrestle with, I was. ⁓ you know, I'd had confidence in my picking ability. All of a sudden I don't have any confidence to pick the right person to talk to. Like literally to talk to, not date, talk to. I don't believe anything I say anymore. I I'm afraid of my self-caffee. and I am afraid like 'cause I just don't trust myself. How did I get in this mess? Well, it must be me. You know, yeah. And ⁓ the dog that's sitting right here, we're about to celebrate ten years together because it's I got him right after the divorce was final because my dog died during my divorce. ⁓ that's tough. It was so awful. ⁓ and so ⁓ poor Ollie has seen me through all my iterations. ⁓ good and not so cute and good and growing. Yep, thank you. ⁓ but but anyway, he it's when you're going through something that alters your life from the inside out, top to bottom, side to side, like you're just not your best self. And I think that there is something to be said about like if you see somebody in the in the hot potato realm of this, if you see somebody and they have had a diagnosis or have somebody in their life who they're close to has had a diagnosis, if they just had loss, if they're clearly experiencing some grief of some kind, whether that's literal loss or like the loss of what you thought. doesn't have to be an actual loss for it to like hit you the same way as as ⁓ correct ⁓ as like a death. Yeah. If if it feels like a death and ⁓ in any way, shape, or form, I would just say to anyone who's trying to give the at least, you know, the good, like see the good of this or whatever, do it at your own peril. Be not because like it's not welcomed in one way, but you may trigger somebody because there might be something they didn't even see. That ready to That you said, yeah. And they may never. And that's okay too. ⁓ it's and I'm not saying it doing at your own peril, like get the hell away from everybody who's going through something difficult. No, they need somebody in their lives. No. Right. Just know that it might not be, it might not be received in that one moment for whatever reason, in the way that you were hoping. And that's okay. That doesn't mean that your relationship's done or that they hate you now. That just means even if they act out. Right. They're going through it. They're going through it and the only way to get through it is to go through it. You know? Exactly. So I yeah, I I hate that it was triggering for you during that time, but I also know like you pretending that it wasn't triggering for you would not have helped you get to where you are today. No. And I've learned very much that I'm a verbal processor and so well, I knew that, but it I didn't do a good job like touching and stuff, you And so I'm like I'm processing and then they're commenting and I'm actually like, don't Yeah. Just let me do my thing. I don't need you to Healing is ugly to listen, you know, like I don't need you to comment, you know, but had someone said I agree rather than at least you know, maybe it feels different. I don't know. I don't know. There's just something really funky about that phrase. Yeah, you can't know. You can't know. And and the hot potato the hot potato segment is not meant and I say this every time, it's not meant to shame someone or to say don't do that or you're bad. No, no, no. It's just to provide Yeah, it's a real life exercise of like, hey, that didn't really from the person offering it, that didn't really land very well. Now I feel weird. ⁓ the person receiving it. Yeah, that didn't land well. I don't feel any better. Thanks. Yes. You know, like it it's ⁓ opportunity to create conversation and openness and vulnerability around these situations where it it is a little bit awkward. We might not deal with it in the time, but to give that perspective of, you know When we're well, when the receiver is well, they can understand the good intention and the sympathy and the empathy and the gratitude and the love and the kindness and all those things. But when they're not well, they can't. Right. Or they might not be able And you have to get through it. One way or another, the the person going through it has to find a way to keep moving forward. Yes. ⁓ a wide berth is probably the best way to help them do that, but not exiting all all completely, like let me know when you're better. Saying, Hey I don't know what you're going through. I can't imagine it. Or maybe you can. Yeah, how you can be there and and what that looks like. And yeah, and and that may not be a conversation that might be a conversation that evolves as well. Exactly. Yes. It is. Absolutely. Absolutely. So well. ⁓ Okay, so are we ⁓ today, are you still indifferent in the in that one way? I I feel strongly about sort of this this decision that like I will do it. I will have a kid. I will probably end up if I'm if I'm alone, I'll probably end up adopting. ⁓ I'm looking I'm looking to I'm looking for that ⁓ this baby was born twenty four hours ago. Like let's do it from the beginning kind of situation. But I also know that ⁓ you know, especially like in Colorado, but that there are a lot of family like children that get split from their siblings. So I'd be willing to adopt siblings and I know that that can change the game sometimes for those kids to not be split from their siblings. not cousins that were in that situation. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. You have to think about your capacity too. But I'm like, I feel I feel strongly about adopting. I feel strongly about too. I do not currently feel strongly about IVF on my own by myself. but also like maybe that changes if I get with someone who's like, I really want my own kids too. And then I'm like, all right, cool. But I'm not gonna like Still like, I don't know. I don't know. I'm not saying I'm not gonna do IBF. That's great. I'm not saying I'm not gonna do IUI. It's like I might if if it comes around to it and that's the right thing and it feels good, but I am going to make sure that I take that time to feel how I feel about it and not just get wrapped up in like, this is the next thing, this is the next step, because that's how I was before. And now I wanna be like, do I actually want that? Right. The good news is that IVF is so exp expensive and so time consuming. It's not something you can really just like do. Yeah, right. You got a plan. You got a plan for it. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. That that's I mean, that's like a good barrier to entry if you're not a hundred percent ready. Exactly. You need to be a hundred percent ready, just like you need to be a hundred percent ready, whatever ready means. Lowercase ⁓ to become a parent and take it on. You need to be ready to take it on. and as an adoptive Or or or or other or otherwise. But I l I like where you are ⁓ for you. Based I I know we just met today, but I like where you are because I feel like you you're just like you're you can take care of yourself, ⁓ make decisions not based on an outcome. You can or how the outcome gets you know executed. You can open decisions. Right. You can make decisions based on is is this the person I wanna be with to do this or Is this the person I don't want to be with at all? And it has nothing to do with your age or you know, you know, it's it's just not so ⁓ rigid. Right. It feels a lot more like it can be aligned with the right circumstances and everything. And that's just feels like a a nice place to land right now after all you've been through. I know. I feel like honestly very proud of myself. I feel like I made my own decision. You know, I'm like I my whole life, this this journey around what it meant to have kids and what it was going to look like was all felt very externally motivated. And now I feel like this is really my decision. And so I it feels really good. And there's a lot of like peace that I feel internally because of that. And it's also strong. So if I get someone who's coming in who's like wants something really strongly that doesn't align with that, I feel very good being like, no, thank you. Yeah. This is what I this is what I want. And you can't change my mind. And I'm not gonna change my mind. And so I feel I'm really excited, you know, about that. Because I I think it's it's so important for us to be aligned with our own choices and when there's a lot of external motivation and we can't really sift through the information to know so that we know what we feel and what we want. It's just it just doesn't feel as good. No, no, and like you said. Coming from a place of strength as opposed to weakness, or like, well, I'm getting older, so therefore I must let go of all these other things because in in pursuit to to be accepted or to get one thing that I want. I gotta get rid of five things that I used to want. That's a place of weakness and like like you're trying to shape shift and you don't wanna be in a place of a shape shift shape shifter because that is not that's not you. You need to be fully yourself. You need to come as you are and someone either accept you for that or not. I I think there's something to be said about f about being older in general. I knew myself a lot more post divorce at ⁓ I think I got married to Marcus at 33. I knew myself at thirty three a lot more than I knew myself in my twenties. And that's just how it works. That's how life works. But I feel like, okay, yeah, I I had to start my life over at 31. And that was hard and I don't wish that upon anyone else, but What I do love is that I came, I think, as a full more of a fully formed human, a little bit more fully formed when I yeah, it came into this this second marriage. And ⁓ and and that would remain today. So I think I showed who I was to the right person who accepted me right then and there of ⁓ as that person. And luckily it's worked out with us. We have been able to grow together. But I think when I first started out. I was so confused for a number of reasons, but I was so confused to who I was that I was kind of learning it in real time. And I think like for you as a f and I'm 40 as well, so I'm thinking of myself now as forty, for you, even that much more has been able to be fully formed. And I think that's great because whoever, if ever, ⁓ 'cause you can't we can't know, right? Meet do meet somebody. Yeah, one of the two. i if it happens again, you're even that much more aware. Yeah. And that's a lot easier and a lot clearer to to to show up in in someone's life, like take it or leave it. And not in a in an asshole way, but like in like literally, if you want this, I can bring this. This is what I have. Yeah. ⁓ if you're thinking that I'm something I'm not, I can go ahead and tell you I can't bring that. You know, like, do I want to buy this from the store or not buy this from the store? It is that simple. And if we c if it's a yes Let it be a hell yes and let's move forward and then we'll go into the next part. ⁓ which me leads me to the last thing. I feel like a lot of your life was with this transparent l nature not transparent like I'm telling you how I really feel, but like a transparency like in school when we were little. Like a o an overlay of the children part of things. Like you thought about it well before you thought about a partner when you were a kid, when you were playing playing h house and and playing mom. And then you thought about it with this first husband and then you didn't want to do And it's like it's kind of been like the overlay throughout your entire life. You thought it sounds like you thought about it more post-divorce than any the other part of the relationship. ⁓ at least what you told me. Yeah. And then so now it's like it's it's not necessarily in the forefront as much. It's like it's kind of taken a back seat in in a very healthy way to where it's not the first thing that's coming up for you. You're letting the other parts of your life come to you. And if it works out. Or however it works out, that's the avenue that you're going to become a mother. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, yay. I'm glad I like got that. Yes. I feel really good. Very very much agree. It was sort of always like a thing. Yeah. Yeah. And now it's Which is interesting that it it it was a thing. It it's interesting to me that it was such a thing early on and that you've arrived here. But I think that's also like that shows growth, true growth. ⁓ and also acceptance, which I think we all need more of. So Hallelujah. Hallelujah. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. I know a lot of that's probably painful to bring back up. ⁓ you know, thinking about things that are less than savory are never fun to talk about, but they're always really nice to get out of your system. As especially when you know that somebody else is probably like, Yeah, I've gone through that as well. Yep. ⁓ if you out there are listening to Rebecca's story and you want to talk to her more about it. First of all, we'll put her book in the show notes. Congratulations on that. That's a hard thing to do. Especially a memoir. Good, good for you. And then ⁓ I'll put her information. So if you want to get in touch with her, ⁓ talk to her about anything, obviously, you know, all my information will be in there. If you heard this episode and you know it would resonate with someone else in your life, please share it with them. ⁓ the only way we get out of this feeling like it's only me. ⁓ because this is a different episode altogether from everything else I've done. You were very right. ⁓ this is different. And it will hit differently for different people for different reasons. And so if you know that this could be helpful to someone in your life, please share it. and everyone else, I will be back next week with another guest or maybe not. I don't know. I will be back next week, that's for sure. ⁓ I hope you have a good rest of your week if you're listening or watching. And until then, take care.