Episode 17: The Pursuit of IVF Happiness with Sarah Herron & Alex Leddy

Small Batch Sound: Hey everybody, and welcome back to Confessions of a Slow Cooker. I'm Ashlyn Blue, and today we have two guests. One you've probably met before if you've followed the show, and one you may have seen in your socials or on TV at one point in time. Alex Letty has been on the show before, but if you don't know who she is, here is a little backstory. Alex is my acupuncturist here in Colorado, and through about like a million appointments pre and during my IVF journey. We got to be friends, and we still are obviously otherwise this would be kind of awkward. she was on the podcast weeks ago to talk about her practice as an acupuncturist, how acupuncture can aid in fertility, among everything else. And she talked about her own fertility journey. Check the episode out if you haven't already. It's awesome. And she's here today because she is my connection to the second guest, Sarah Heron. As I said before, you might know Sarah from your Instagram feed, or if you are a Bachelor fan, she was on season 17, as well as the third season of Bachelor in Paradise. She is also the founder of the nonprofit She Lift, which is geared toward building confidence and self-esteem in women with physical differences. And it's through outdoor recreation and mentorship. And yes, that is how the website describes it, but I could not write it any better. So Sorry. Anyway, Sarah's story of becoming a mother is harrowing to say the very least. And I can't wait for her to share it with you today. Okay, ladies, I have talked enough. It's y'all's turn. Sarah, since you are the guest of honor, first of all, thank you for both being here. But Sarah, as the guest of honor, you get to decide where you want to start first. ⁓ my gosh. I n no, I don't know. I ⁓ well thank you for having me on. I mean, it's ⁓ it's a pleasure to be here and to like h be connected in this way through Alex because ⁓ I mean, it was probably three years ago I came knocking on Alex's door and and then, you know, as early motherhood goes, you kind of Grow apart and then you come back together, and it's this contraction of connection and shared experience. And so it's just really lovely to be back in Alex's presence and to be meeting you, Ashlyn. So thanks for having us. but yeah, I am an open book. We can go wherever you want. it's a s my story is a story I'm quite familiar with talking about now at this point. I will say, spoiler alert, I'm now a mom of twins who turn two in a couple weeks. And I would say this is probably the first t first like podcast I've done in quite a while. Yeah. I've only done a couple since they've been born. So this is like we're on the other side now. and it's exciting to Yeah, to be on this side of things. ⁓ that's great. And I'm so glad I mean we were talking before we started on how you feel like you're coming up for air for the first time around two. And it kind of felt like a at one for me at with my son, I was telling you. But now that I'm at two, it's like, no, that was that was like, I don't know, a little like ⁓ marine layer that I felt. And now it actually feels and it's getting more fun. I'm sure you can attest to that. ⁓ now that they can like communicate. In different ways. ⁓ okay, so I guess most people start, you know, ⁓ like stories do at the beginning. I can start with where I met Sarah and then maybe Sarah can ⁓ Please. Yeah, yeah. I ⁓ and thank you, Ashlyn, for having us. I'm excited to be part of it and to be able to like connect with Sarah because Sarah's one of my favorite people even though we haven't like been able to connect in a long time. But you know, they're those people that stick out in in just my work that I enjoyed working with and also her story and everything that she's been through and how inspiring it is and I think it's just amazing to have that you're willing to share Sarah and ⁓ I so I met Sarah in February 2023 which is wild so it was three years ago and ⁓ prior to having her twins and you came in to see me Three weeks after Oliver. And so I'll let Sarah tell tell that piece. But I met Sarah when she was recovering from a loss. and then we were able to work together to kind of process some grief with that. And then also in preparation for for trying to get pregnant again and and kind of the journey. that followed. there were lots of pieces of that along the way. And so I don't know where you want to start prior to that. I know you'd been doing ⁓ two years prior to that of IBF and I'll but I'll just let you jump in. Yeah. gosh, it's ki I'm kinda like going back to all of it now because I didn't realize I came to you in February. I mean it's all such a blur. So we I think was probably prior. It was three weeks after. I mean, it was quite close. So we had I'll just take it back. My husband, Dylan, and I at the time was just my boyfriend. We weren't even engaged. But we it was like COVID lockdown and we knew we wanted to start a family. And I mean, what else are you doing during COVID? Let's try and make a baby. and so we spent about six months trying to get pregnant with no luck. I had heard through a couple of friends of mine that live locally that they were doing acupuncture to help get pregnant. ⁓ and s and one of them actually who got pregnant with twins because of acupuncture. And you know, you hear, ⁓ well, she did this and she tried that. So we're gonna try this. And you you're just like you ho you cling on to anything that might help and any hope. So I started acupuncture and then we've learned my Gynacologist was just like, no, you're gonna have to go straight to IVF. Like your ovarian reserve is just shot if you want any chance of ⁓ conceiving. I wouldn't even recommend like ⁓ clomid or any like fertility medications, wouldn't even recommend IUI. Like you're gonna need to go straight to like embryo creation. So in a way, I am grateful for the directness. I mean, to me, it's like why waste time if I did. I wasted all the time. Yeah. And I mean, like, and it's it's a different preference for everyone, right? Like so many people jumping straight into IVF is a huge financial undertaking. So also that's not an option for many people. And they're like, Well, I have to pursue X, Y, and Z before I can jump overboard into IVF. So totally understand the different paths for different different people in different situations. But yeah, we got started on IVF and I decided I would continue with acupuncture. And I was seeing a ⁓ practitioner, like I said, locally, who was amazing and great. And I I love her. ⁓ and I was with her for probably like a year or so. And then we got pregnant at the exact same time. ⁓ this was now I think my second round of IVF got it was successful. Got pregnant with a little boy ⁓ who we later named Oliver. And I continued to see that practitioner through my pregnancy until unfortunately at 25 weeks we lost the pregnancy. And ⁓ I just felt, I mean, aside from all of the other emotions of grief and loss and trauma and healing, that it was just too much for me to continue seeing that acupuncturist, knowing that she was having a baby with a due date right around the same time as me. I think we were like a week apart. And I was just like, I can't continue to show up to her office ⁓ and continue to watch her belly grow while mine isn't. So I started looking for new acupuncturists in the area and was recommended to go see Alex. And I walked into her office ⁓ and was just like, ⁓ my gosh, this space is so healing. And like her, you know, persona was so healing and calming and I remember sitting down in your room, Alex, and basically, you know, we had like our consult. I'm not even on the table. I was sitting in the chair and I just started like crying, telling you our circumstance and what led me to you. And you were so empathetic and patient and kind. And I th I think you probably did a service on me that day and then texted or emailed me afterward. And said, I really need to share with you that I am pregnant and I want you to be comfortable moving forward. And I totally understand if you're not comfortable moving forward with me. Mm-hmm. ⁓ and I explained that it was something I I was actually okay with because I didn't have any like prior knowledge or relationship with you and it didn't it wasn't gonna be an issue for me. So you were very new in your pregnancy too, if I recall. ⁓ Yeah. It was like twelve weeks. Yeah. And you told me your whole story and I was like, I have to disclose this. I didn't I mean obviously. And I ⁓ but I didn't want to put you on the spot. You know, like as we're sitting there. I was like, I need to tell her this afterwards so that she can sit with it and process it and then truly tell me honestly without feeling any awkwardness or pressure if like, you know, it didn't feel right for you. Yeah. And I was glad that you felt comfortable moving forward, but I completely would have understood if it didn't feel that way. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that. And ⁓ and I think just like knowing that I mean, gosh, so many people don't know how to navigate things like that around loss or infertility. Like and just the fact that you handled it the way you did made me feel like, okay, I can trust her. Like she's safe space. I don't feel I don't know. I just felt it felt okay to me. And so we proceeded. And then I don't know, not to like ble breeze over it, but I I guess we probably did acupuncture for like a year or so while I went through a couple more rounds of IVF, more egg retrievals, more embryo transfers that did not take. ⁓ and then ultimately got pregnant. I don't know if I can't remember if I was still seeing you when I got pregnant with the girls or if I had stopped. I think you had actually stopped. ⁓ but you know, we stayed like I was following you on social media, so I knew Yeah. What was going on. And then, you know, I would reach out here and there. You and I met in the park to just meet up one day and we went for a walk. And Sarah was doing, you know, work with groups at the time. Like you had pulled together the women's group that you were kind of helping talk with people. And ⁓ we stayed in touch. And then I remember I feel like it was December. It was like right before Christmas. And one of your stories was like, I have some really big news. I don't know if I'm ready to share it. And I was like, ⁓ my gosh. And then you shared that you were pregnant because there were some other iterations that happened where you were like, I mean, I I don't know if we're gonna adopt. I don't know what we're gonna do, but ⁓ we're gonna try these last two embryos and see what happens. And then they both took. Was it December, Sarah? I feel like it was. Yeah, my transfer date was actually December fourth because it was my birthday and we were like, these are, you know, we're doing a Hail Mary. These are our last two embryos. Let's and we were so burnt out. ⁓ you know, I think women handle things a little differently. Like I could probably have kept going forever, right? Like whereas Dylan was definitely at his birthday. limits. Like he was emotionally exhausted and ⁓ I mean financially we just couldn't really pursue it anymore. But he was like, We'll transfer these two embryos and if they don't stick, like we need to start visualizing what our life is gonna look like either creating a family a different way or being child free. And so I was kind of at the same point too and I was like, all right, yeah, let's just stick them both in and hope one of ⁓ takes and they both took. So it was Yeah. Early December. It was exciting. It was so exciting. Yeah. Yeah. So then you transfer them on that day or did you find out that day on your birthday? No, we transferred them on my birthday and then you know, found out seven days later. So I was always like an early tester. My doctor also always let me do an early test. So ⁓ that's nice. Yeah. I was like the rule follower who was like, Nope, I cannot do that. ⁓ yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So how many transfers, ⁓ if you recall, and I know it's kind of fuzzy, how many retrievals and how many transfers do you think you ended up doing all in all? Did four retrievals and I believe the girls are my sixth transfer. ⁓ yeah. But the last transfer was kind of a double whammy because we had done like medicated transfer cycles every time. ⁓ did you do the natural the last one? Yeah. And so I had heard from people. Yeah, that they were having more luck with the natural transfer. And so I said I wanted to do that. And Dr. Amy, our IVF doctor, was like, Well, why do how do you feel about one more retrieval? If we're doing a natural cycle and you're gonna be here, like, why don't I just give you some of the meds? You know, I don't even remember what you take now. I feel so removed, but like leading up to the retrieval, she was like, let's just see what we can get. And I was, you know, don't get dangle a carrot in front of my face. So I was like, okay, yeah, let's do it. So it was a I think they called that kind of like, no, I'm not even recalling, but it's like a natural cycle, but not. I mean, obviously I was pumped full of hormones, but I didn't do any of the like progesterone or anything leading up to it. So it was still right. We transferred with like natural ovulation. Right. Yeah, I think it's just ⁓ from what I recall, the fully medicated, they just know everything. They the the calendar set, it's all they hijack your system. And then that's what I did the first transfer that did not take for me. And then the second one was was a little less calendar friendly and a little bit more just based on more testing, more ⁓ tr tweaking as you go. and did you have to travel to Denver? So my doctor's in San Francisco, so we would go out there for All of our treatment. Okay. So yes, you did travel, but further. ⁓ yeah. And that makes it that's that's what I think ultimately made the medical medicated one seem a little bit easier just because of the logistics. And so yeah, San Francisco would be the same, but yeah. ⁓ well that's so great. I'm so gl I mean, I'm so sorry you went through all of those. That's insane. I I can imagine up and down. I just had my husband on last week talking about his side of things and one of the lasting things that he said that I did not even realize until we were taping was he said, I don't wish I BF on my worst enemy. And I was like, shit. Cause I thought, like you, like, this is what we're doing. It is what it is. I didn't realize the toll that I had taken on him taken on him. Yeah. ⁓ in we only did one retrieval and two transfers. ⁓ we tried since 2020. So we were and we did IUIs and we did other things and he had an issue with his they had to manually remove his sperm because he had an obstruction that we figured out over a full year. He had it with the IUIs, and then all of a sudden during our workup, nothing was there anymore. And we were like, What happened in two months? Like, where did the count go? And so we I mean, we went through it, but we didn't have to do so many rounds. And so I can't imagine how he would have fared by that point. But so God bless all the partners as well as the women who are going through this. Yeah. I think it's it's interesting. ⁓ you know, his perspective because now we're at this place of wanting well, I would love I I think I would love a third. I don't know. I go back and forth and I'm like, now we have we do have some embryos left from that last minute Hail Mary egg retrieval. And I'm like, let's go put ⁓ in. But, you know, we underestimate, I think, yeah, like the trauma and the impact it puts on our partners because women Now that you know, we're all here, we can say we've gone through childbirth. Like you kind of black out and you forget and you're like, I could do it again. And I think IVF is kind of the same way for me. I'm like, I don't remember the bad. I just remember like the outcome, which is amazing. Yeah. And so but they don't like they don't forget witnessing their partner go through all of that. ⁓ and and and so he's like, I don't want to see you go through that again. Like I just want my wife back. I want to move on with our lives. Like and I especially when it comes to baby loss, I think there's yeah a lot of trauma for him too. I I think sometimes it's easy to be like, well, I was the one carrying him. I had the physiological loss. He didn't. It's obviously harder for me, but that's a really unfair perspective. ⁓ and so I have to take into account like you know, how he's feeling and the and the fears that he has around it as well. ⁓ and not to mention, like, part of the reason we actually didn't know until we started IVF that we're both carriers of ⁓ cystic fibrosis and had no idea but i i it's a pretty severe ⁓ issue if we're if we were to, you know, conceive a child, he carries a a pretty severe variant of the disorder and I carry a less severe, I guess is what they would say, variant of it. But still we would have a one in four chance. And, you know, so there's just like those considerations to take into it when you get pregnant and there's fears around that. And obviously you want to put the give your child the best foot forward. ⁓ and so there's just like so many variables that play into all of it. It's not just for us, at least it was never just Get pregnant and have a healthy living baby on the first track. And you are thirty are you thirty-nine now? I'm thirty-nine. Yeah. I'm forty. So no no shade whatsoever. No. But that is that is such a yeah, that is such a part of this whole process, I feel like, too, is the clock. And when we were just we were just well, we we're in the same boat right now where my husband's forty three. ⁓ And I'll be forty one in a couple months. And it's ⁓ we get qu you know, asked all the time, don't you want Archer to have a little sibling? And we're Well, of course, that was the original plan. But we didn't foresee all the stuff we had to go through to get him. And we would have to go back. We we could do an IUI, I guess, because his ⁓ his swimmers are still on ice down in Denver. But ⁓ same thing. Like my eggs are old now, older than they were when I first, you know, did the retrieval back when I was, I think, thirty seven. And I don't know. I just weighing the whole I'm also feeling like myself for the first time in half a decade. And I feel like that's making me a better person in other ways, not like, ⁓ I just look better. It's like, no, I I like feel like Ashlyn again, not someone who's pursuing something that seems impossible. and then also, you know, like you said, the odds of things going wrong the older that the eggs are, the less, you know, maybe maybe less quality on my end. ⁓ and then what that would do to Archer. Like I you know, like we work so hard for him that and I'm not s this is not like a a definitive thing for anybody. It's just things you have to weigh. Yeah. and also being older and being a you know, I don't want to put it on Archer if something goes wrong. Like be like, sorry buddy. Yeah. When you turn twenty, you're you're the the sole giver ⁓ for for your sibling. So anyway. Yeah. Yep, exactly. I actually someone just messaged me that perspective on Instagram the other day because I was asking people, I was like, How do you navigate this decision when you have all these factors to consider? And someone she did share with me, you know, after they had a a child and then they went through like multiple more rounds of IVF and unfortunately ended in a stillbirth and just like the impact that that had on the whole family. ⁓ not just her and and it is asking everyone in the unit to show up to sign up for the journey again. And so, you know, I do think about when it when I said thirty nine, it's like because I do feel like I like I blinked and six years we're gone to IVF and you put your life on hold, you know, you don't go on the vacations, you don't go to the weddings because you don't wanna miss out on the opportunity for yeah, you don't You don't, you're like, well, but I could have a transfer that month. And if I don't if I go to the wedding, then I have to postpone a a whole month. And every month seems so so yeah. And just like it so I don't know the word I'm looking for. Like you cannot miss a single month of your life due to external circumstances. Like everything has to be devoted towards getting pregnant. And so, yeah, it just feels like you're getting Everyone in the family unit has to be on board to sign up for the impacts of an IVF journey. Yeah. Yeah. Can we talk about so one of my biggest reasons for this being a podcast? ⁓ I don't know if you know the backstory, but ⁓ I was in acupuncture with Alex when we actually when I actually thought of the concept. for this, but in a book form. I was lying down in her ⁓ on you know on the on the acupuncture bed and she said, All right, now I'm gonna let you cook. And the word cook drew me back into ⁓ when 2014 I would thought of an idea for like an actual novel that I wanted to write called Confessions of a Slow Cooker. And it was about somebody who was gonna get pregnant. And so I was in my first marriage at the time and I was like, Well, I'll have to wait till I get pregnant so I can write about this f for real. ⁓ spoiler, did not make it through that marriage, got divorced two years later, and ⁓ so I kept the title, but I didn't know what I'd ever do with it, you know, and I had really probably never thought I would use it at that point. Did not foresee the divorce, did not foresee getting married again at 33 did not foresee having trouble getting pregnant. ⁓ and then so I'm sitting there, you know, like hooked up and ⁓ can't move. And normally I would have Alex, dear Alex, put on my Harry Potter so I could listen to a movie because I couldn't s couldn't like chill with the music that was playing. ⁓ and so this time I think I did, but I had to like pretend not to hear it. So that I would say slow cooker, slow cooker, slow cooker like and I didn't chill out for that entire time until she came back and I was like, I have an idea. Do you want to write a book about people and blah blah blah? And anyway, the beginning of this year, ⁓ it popped in my brain. I was like, why is this a book? This is this needs to be a voice, this needs to have a face. This, if I know anything from my time, the books that like Alex recommended were great. But I didn't know who these people were. And I didn't know, do I look like them? Was this written in the 90s? Like, what was around? How and how could I maybe get in touch with them to ask them a question? And it just felt like super removed. And so this idea for podcasts. ⁓ since I was already editing other people's podcasts, it just kind of like was like a light bulb and it I was like, I I want people to feel comfortable talking about it. ⁓ because it feels like a lot of people aren't talking about it. I feel like the people like you, Sarah, are the ones that stand out. Because it's an interesting story, yes, but because you're one of few who who speak freely about it and often and ⁓ That is even mentioned the book to Sarah. Did I mention ⁓ okay. Okay. I think she brought it up. Yeah. Okay. Like, sorry, I didn't know that. No, no, no. I think it was, you know, this was a while back. It might have even been that walk that we took, but I was like, you're open to sharing your story. And she was like, Yeah, absolutely. And then, you know, I think it evolved to be a podcast as it should have been, right? Like I think it's absolutely it's great that it became a podcast and that you just jumped into doing the podcast version instead of the book. I think it's worked out as it was meant to be, you know? I do too. And and so the the reason I've been bringing that up is not to talk about me starting a podcast. We're here. we're on it. But radical candor is something that I feel like in this day and age, it's it's easy to jump on a microphone. We can all get on here right now from our respective places and we can talk. But are we talking about things that are like really matter to us. I mean, yes is the answer here. But I feel like with in with social media, you can put out whatever you want. It doesn't have to be the full truth. And ⁓ Sarah, obviously that's what you do. You can tell. I did like a full recap of you. I have now stalked you. you're lovely as I thought you would be. And ⁓ but yes, your candor is part of the draw. And the People who have reached out to me since I started this and since I talked about going through IBF, because I didn't actually talk about my pregnancy stuff or my IBF online at all until he was here. not because I didn't want people to know what was going on, but because it at that point it was just very personal to Marcus and me. And ⁓ it I just felt like it was just ours. It was ours to share eventually. But in the time at the time, I just like covered up my belly in every photo and didn't mention it. And and that's also not why I had social media. It was really to keep up with people back in Nashville where I'm from and see the people I knew and whatnot. And so anyway, after that I had people reach out to me and say, Hey, I'm going through this too. Did now that I know you have they started to ask me more questions. And so I became kind of a a a little bit of a go to for people offline. And then since starting this podcast, the response has been the same. I haven't told this person about my fertility struggles. I haven't talked about this. And I'm just sitting there going, Why? Not because like I want you to share everything, but because I'm like you only have enough real estate in your body for all of your emotions and all of your fears and assumptions and When you don't feel comfortable, like why don't you feel comfortable s talking about it? And I I just wanna make a platform and and and feed a platform and bring people on who are willing to talk about it so that it will dispel that idea that there's something to be a ashamed of, b embarrassed of, or C just like ⁓ just like it's eating you alive, but you just feel like you can't share it. And so what makes you, Sarah? It's a long way getting here. What makes you feel comfortable? What or or is it that is that just how you run? I run that way. ⁓ but how do you how would you say you feel comfortable being on camera and talking about things that are personal? okay. Well, I feel like I don't know if I've always run that way. I don't know if I've always been that way, but I would say going on the bachelor was the first step because that was like the first unmasking of vulnerability on a massive public platform. You know, I knew stepping out of the limo, I was the first contestant that had ever appeared on the show with a disability, at least a visible disability. And that remains true still until this day, 2026. There have been a couple contestants with ⁓ different types of disabilities, hearing loss, and I th I may be forgetting another one, but mine was like, you're gonna step out of the limo and America is gonna see you look different. And so I had to like face that. ⁓ how was that? Fear, I guess. ⁓ well there was a couple months leading up to it. And I mean first of all, I grew up watching the show. loved the show, believed in the show. Like I grew up h here in Colorado. Trista Sutter was the first bachelorette, married Ryan, like the firefighter. Like I believed in the process. And I was twenty four years old probably when I got cast to be on this show or somewhere around there. And I was dating. I was living in LA, probably seeing you at Hot Eight Yoga. And I was like, you know, maybe if I just go on this show, well, let me back up. Da dating apps were like a new big thing. So like Tinder and Bumble. I don't even know if Bumble was a thing yet. It was probably just like match dot com back then. And but it was big. Like that's how people were starting to date. And I was very insecure and afraid to put photos of myself on my profiles because I was like, I'm just gonna get immediately left swiped. Like no one ⁓ no one's even gonna want to date me because I have a disability. This was my self limiting belief. And so I thought if if I go on the show, then like it's just out there, right? Like it rips the band-aid off for me. And and then even if I don't find Prince Charming, any guy I date afterward will know who I am. Like I don't know. So They've already digested it. Yeah. The w the the world was small to me back then. And so I was just like, it'll rip the band-aid off. So I had months and then I so I a friend actually nominated me. They called me in for casting and immediately We're like, yes, you're great. We want you now. Can you stay single for the summer? And I was like, no problem. and we started filming in the fall. And so I had months to like lead up to it. I had friends that were like amping me up. Producers get in touch with you. They start like taking you on like get to know you coffee dates and stuff. And like start psychologically tapping into you. And so I felt really, really comfortable with production. ⁓ and I had really great mentorship I felt through the process. So I when it came time to actually get out of the limo, I wasn't that scared. And I had this team of support that you know, just like made me believe in myself and I was pretty excited for it. And then what f what came after that was obviously the show aired and I started getting like emails and because this was like two thousand twelve, so Instagram had only been out for a year. I was getting emails and letters written to me at work. Like people f would search my work address and send me hard mail. And it would be like letters with photos of little girls written by their mom saying, like, my daughter has an arm just like you, and that you're the first person I've ever seen on national television that looks like her. And I I had her watch the show with me so that she could see, you know, what she could grow up to be like. And I was like, ⁓ my gosh, this is a lot for me to like take on. Like, I don't know if I'm prepared for this. What do I do with this overwhelming response? And I didn't do anything. I was just like, this is not my thing to solve or figure out right now. And then a couple more years go by. I went back on the show again. Meanwhile, like my confidence was building and Instagram was kind of ramping up. And I found this place of being able to like share stories on Instagram of my life and ⁓ I I got really into outdoor recreation and I started like hiking half dome at Yosemite and just like doing bigger and more adventurous things and I saw this opportunity to talk about having a disability in the outdoors. And that's when I started really making the connection like there's something here. If you can be vulnerable, it leads to community, it leads to connection. And shockingly, I don't know if like is it I don't know, I have like guardian angels looking out for me or whatever, but it never really led to like hate or bullying. Like it just was fruitful in every way possible. And and so that's what inspired me to start my nonprofit. and then it kind of just the ball kept rolling from there. It's like I w I received a mental health diagnosis in twenty twenty. I was pretty vulnerable sharing that online. And every time I like so to speak stepped into the arena and like showed my cards to people, it led me to f to greater connection and bigger communities. And so I've always just found the reward of of being vulnerable. to be really, really nurturing. So yeah, I love Vulnerability. I love encouraging other people to share. And I I know I'm this is long-winded now, but I will never forget. I went to college with a girl that I stayed in touch with on social media. And when she first posted a photo one day, it was like her sonogram photo with IVF needles around it. I was like, whoa. Like she's going through IVF. I felt like it was such a huge statement for her to make that publicly. I didn't know anyone else who had gone through IVF or infertility. And she's not like she didn't have like a ton of followers or anything. It was just her personal story. And that stuck like was just like tattooed in my brain. And then a couple years later, when I went through infertility, like I remembered her post. And it's so interesting. To your point earlier, you think you're like the only person going through it. You think you're alone. And the reality is, like, so many of us are going through it. So many women in families are going through infertility. If you just talk about it, and it doesn't mean you have to like post it online, but just talk to someone, talk to an acupuncturist. She'll put you in touch with someone. ⁓ you know, and and we don't have to carry it all on our own. We we we weren't meant to do it all by ourselves. I truly don't. believe that. Yeah. I love that. Because I obviously met Sarah through my practice, but then I started following Sarah as well. And you know, I'm actually not on social media since I stopped breastfeeding for a couple of years. But but when I was That's an interesting connection. Was 'cause you only did it while you were breastfeeding? ⁓ no, I mean, prior to that I I was on social media kind of just normally, but I found when I was breastfeeding, I was on it so much because you're up in the middle of the night and like you're by yourself, there's no one else awake, you're not gonna be like texting people, communicating like, Hey, it's two in the morning, what are you doing? you know, and you also don't have mental capacity to be reading or anything like that. So I was just on it a lot and I found after that, I was like, I think I'm just gonna take a break. Okay. Okay. ⁓ but anyway. Now I get connection. Sorry. I was like breastfeeding is social media. Okay. No, sorry for that. Yeah, that was vague. But ⁓ you know, I just found Sarah's story like ⁓ it was one of my favorite feeds to follow because it was so you know, and obviously I knew her personally, but the way that you repres you you put your story out there, Sarah, was so moving. Like I still remember images that I saw in the videos that you shared of like when you took a pregnancy test and it was negative. And then, you know, Dylan coming in to embrace you and the music and and how touching it was. And it just like it gives me chills still because I it was so moving. Like I remember crying watching it. And I was like, This is so moving and real and vulnerable and also inspiring. And, you know, it ended in such a positive way. And you know, seeing you guys get married in the Grand Canyon and you just all these things that you had been through. And then it was just like it was so great. And I just have to applaud you for having the courage and the bravery. But it just to me, you you're an inspiration that you know things can turn out. And ⁓ I think sharing is and and Ashlyn, with to you at this podcast, it's like being willing to share your story can really help other people. I mean it really can. Like I share people's stories and hear, but I keep it very vague about who I'm talking about ⁓ with HIPAA and all of that. But I think it really helps women who are going through really difficult times to hear or see on social media or listen to podcasts where it's like the outcomes have been positive so that it gives them hope that that they can keep going, that they're not alone, that things have worked out, journeys have been really long and still worked out, you know. So I just appreciate both of your willingness to put it out there. Yeah. Even more than the positive outcome, I feel like the arc is the key. Anyone can post that it worked. Anyone can say and and and this is not to say posting on Instagram. Anyone can share. Let me just say that. Share in real life. over the phone, over a text. Those things are great. But if I learned anything from ⁓ fertility struggles, it's like you said s earlier, Sarah, like you feel like you put your life on hold, but you can't really. You actually still have to keep living and showing up to your life, whether that's like going to work or, you know, all the things that are going on. For me, it was my sister getting pregnant six times between ⁓ begin before I started trying and through the end. She has four boys, ⁓ seven, six, five, and two. Wow. yeah. And so my little sister getting pregnant all these times, like I had still to show up for her. Like as her older sister, as her sister in general. I'm still an aunt to all those boys. And ⁓ and so like while I checked out of a lot of things in my life, y I still had to live the life. And in those times, ⁓ I needed people to know what was going on. I wasn't posting about it. ⁓ Because that really wasn't just this just wasn't my way and it wasn't it wasn't the way it had been beforehand. ⁓ but I did tell all my people and I kept them aware of what was going on. ⁓ almost to the detriment of my like who have I told? Who have I not? Like I'm like scrolling through and being like, I forgot to update this person. But I I still feel like that was important for me because they were there in the good times and the bad. They were there when I told them the transfer didn't work. ⁓ and when it when I was able to send them a pregnancy test that I took after the fact, 'cause I'd already been told by the nurse that it had worked, but I always wanted to get a a pregnancy test that was ⁓ two pink lines. And so I sent them that. But the the outcome of them knowing how far I had come, those people in my life, ⁓ to that point, it the celebration was deep and wide. It wasn't like Yay, you did something your body should do. It was like they knew that this was a miracle. And ⁓ and so I to Alex's point of you sharing when something didn't work or when you weren't pregnant or whatnot, like those are the things that I think make the like anyone can be happy for, especially an influencer. It's like, okay, got it, you got a good life, or at least that's what you tell me. But when someone tells you, no, I'm living a life like you are, I'm living. ups and downs and sideways and sometimes it's like I think what did you post the other day or I don't even know if it was the other day because I told you I stalked you. ⁓ for the for me it was like yesterday what probably wasn't but I think you said something to the effect of in something about being interesting. Like my li like ⁓ yeah yeah yeah I know what you're talking about. Yeah like just more of a linear thing right now. ⁓ but it was it was a good montage anyway. You you can describe it better. Well, I think the post that you're talking about I said but I I said something along the Yeah. The internet according to like the internet and the algorithm and engagement is like my life isn't interesting. Like if you're not posting about things that are, you know, like I I I don't know It got married again. Yeah. Yeah. It's really exciting or severely traumatic. Then you're just kinda the mundane is not interesting. And really like the mundane is like what I've fought so hard for to be here. And and I think like to your point about the arc is so important and why sharing is so important is because I also believe that if you're someone who has gone through infertility or struggled to conceive or even if you're like on the other side and you have children and let's say like you want more babies, but like clocks ticking or your partner doesn't want babies and and there's something that still needs to be shared. Like the story doesn't end just because your baby is earth side now. And I what I'm getting at, quite honestly, is like I'll never forget even after my girls were born and I would I still see pregnancy announcements and I feel jealous or envious or heartbroken or triggered because it just like takes you back and it kind of reminds you of kind of reminds you of like what wasn't so easy for you. Mm-hmm. And I also have a little sister. She's thirteen years younger than me, twelve years younger than me. And like I know her and her husband are gonna start trying to have a baby pretty soon. In the next couple of years as they should. And I'm like bothered by it. Like, you know, and it's just like, but that's the human experience is like we have all these feelings. It's not just, ⁓ my girls are here and all those emotions and all the hard work is swept under the rug. It's like it still bubbles up. And so you need people who can see you in that, in those emotions, like see you for the struggle and see you for the joy. And And the mundane and it's not, yeah, it's just And do you know if all of those do you know if all of those announcements were just not fraught with a lot of ups and downs technically? Sorry, what? Do you know if some of those announcements were ⁓ right. Maybe they had other things and they're just showing you that? And that's not a sh that's not throwing any shade at that person, but I wonder. I've like I wonder how many people. don't share because they are just wanting the good stuff now. You know, I've I've I've been through that. That's over. And I wonder how much sharing, not necessarily online, but sharing it and getting it out of your system would actually make the full experience that much fuller. I don't know. or at least not something that you feel like no one else went through this and there's there must be something wrong with what I went through. ⁓ I find more people have more struggles than they're willing. I mean, and and this goes outside of fertility. This goes, I was I like I'm divorced. ⁓ and I think you said it like every single time you became more vulnerable and shared something, which is so good. I'm so glad you got a good response because I'm sure not everybody has that experience. But I did as well every time that I shared a little bit more of me to people I wanted to connect with in in person or otherwise. I have like a bigger group of people who wanted to talk back. I think a lot of people growing up, I had a I had a really good life growing up. And I think I looked like I had an even better life than I did. I had some hard stuff. I had went through a very traumatic experience ⁓ when I was nineteen that I I had therapy today, still working on that. and with that, I think people kind of thought like n there was nothing going on in my life. I got a record deal after college. I sang for a living. Like I it looked good on paper. I looked good in fixtures. It looked good online. And ⁓ and then when I got my divorce, it was like I was okay with it because it was what I was going through. You know, like I what am I gonna do? Outrun it, no. But I feel like the people I always wanted to be ⁓ closer with all of a sudden saw me as regular. And I was like, Yes, I am regular. I've always been regular. Please, please talk to me. ⁓ and then with IVF and infertility and anything like that, it's just gotten better and better and better because my group of people, I mean, I'm not one of the people who has like a million bridesmaids type girl. I didn't even have bridesmaids for my second wedding, or anything like that. But I do love connection. And and whether that's like an acquaintance or someone I've just met over ⁓ a podcast. Like I love being vulnerable vulner vulnerable. Vulnerable about things because I know all it's gonna do is let you know me and therefore open the door for you to me to know you a little bit better. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And everyone does how many more ways can I say vulnerable? Vulnerable. Everyone does have like things going on, you know. I think it's just like a great lesson in general of just to be really conscious. Like people, you you walk down the street and you don't know what's going on with somebody. And like coming back to that space of kindness across the board. 100%. I think being sensitive too, like one of the things I really appreciated about Sarah's ⁓ social media too was the little blurbs that you would do about and it's part of your podcast too, Ashlyn, like the things that people would say that We're just kind of like not sensitive and not aware. And you know, just and people sometimes are just oblivious or people don't mean to be unkind, but it happens. And I think it's just being really trying to be more aware. But Sarah shed some light on things like around the holidays, like things like please don't, you know, try to avoid doing these things that can be really hurtful or hard. And I think it's it's great to also bring awareness in that. Realm of things, like just what to be aware of with people as people do share and are are being vulnerable about what's going on with them, then be really conscious about what not to do or or try to be careful there. Yeah. Well, there's an education piece around all of this. It's like if you someone like me, I feel I have felt the privilege of being able to help shed. education around topics like this because it's like I know I have people who are going through infertility ⁓ looking at my account and people who aren't. I have people who have experienced baby loss and people who have not. And if I can kind of like bridge the gap through some education around it, look, we're all human. I still to this day say things. I put my foot in my mouth. I say something that offends someone. But if you can take the feedback and be like, yeah, okay, I I definitely don't want to make a particular group of people feel this way. So like I wanna be aware of their feelings and not say something a particular way again in the future, then like it's you know, it's okay. We're all learning. No one there's no guidebook for like how to talk about infertility if you aren't experiencing it. And so if people like me can use their platforms to help educate a little bit, I'm happy to do that. Or I was. I don't I feel like I don't do a whole lot of that anymore and maybe I should. Well then let's help I thought it was helpful. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Well then let's let's take that into the segment that ⁓ Alex is talking about. hot potato. And hot potato, Sarah, if you don't know or if someone's listening or watching it does not know, it is about cautionary tales. ⁓ maybe something and I know one that I saw on your Instagram that I was like, No, no, no, no, no. I was I was hot potato about your hot potato. And anyway, so it's it's if someone says something to you that is insensitive on purpose, if someone says something to in that's ins insensitive to you that is not on purpose, it is, you know, ⁓ unsolicited advice or just somebody trying to fill the space, the silence and not knowing what to say. And so they just say whatever comes, ⁓ platitudes, things like that that are just not helpful. And ⁓ again, it's not about calling someone out. It's not about naming someone, it's not about shaming them. It's about the education. It is about understanding that maybe the way you thought it sounded coming out of your mouth ⁓ may not land with the person who was receiving the comment. ⁓ and again, some people like my sister's amount of hot potatoes w it was atrocious. And they were mostly like meant to hurt her feelings. ⁓ because she got pregnant so many times and did not realize she was ovulating twice a month. ⁓ and so her trying not to get pregnant so soon after this one did not take and she had some hate-filled responses from people who should never have said things to her, ⁓ but did. And then other people, it's like the whole like, if you just calm down or if you just relax or whatever. So they c they run the gamut, but ⁓ I'll let you tell s tell one, but I know there was one you put on your social media and I I do want you to highlight that one. ⁓ and it has to do with your arm. and taking care of your girls alone. ⁓ okay. I was like, I have no idea where you're going with. Sorry. ⁓ You don't know your social media back and forth like I do now. ⁓ no. So a couple yeah, when the girls were first born, they were probably like two or three months old, two ⁓ young, I don't know. And Dylan had to go back to work finally and I like posted on Instagram that I was home alone with the girls for the first time. And someone commented, you shouldn't be left home alone with those girls or those babies. And I saw it and was like immediately filled with probably like anxiety and rage and embarrassment and like I don't know, a f a w I'm like influx of is what I felt for you. Just Yeah. And it's interesting because Everyone I tell, they're like, I can't believe someone would say that to you. I can't believe someone would say that to you. But my mind was also like, I don't know, maybe they genuinely were like concerned for my well-being and the safe and like the girls' safety and my safety. And like, I just I I think people say things with the best intention. I really do. I really not always, of course, but like I do think when it comes to like infertility and I I think This person was trying to be like I'm not I hope you had support. I like, are you ready to be alone? Like are do you have someone on speed dial if something goes wrong? Like I don't I don't know, but I'm choosing to believe that because I think most people when they say platitudes, a little different. But when people offer platitudes, I think it's because they're trying to settle their discomfort with the situation rather than like meet you where you are. And so They're just trying to connect. And I tr I always try to see that first. And people have like, ⁓ that really stung what you just said. But like, I get it. You're trying to connect with me. And I appreciate that. So like let me try and meet you there. And I it takes work to get there. I will say that. But yeah, someone said you shouldn't be left alone with those girls. Of course, that lended itself to pretty ⁓ yeah, like I would say a lot of creative fodder for me because I was like, well, actually, I do quite a bit with these girls. And I feel Scared just like any mom left home alone when her husband goes back to work for the first time or partner goes back to work. So yeah, I was scared, but also like I'm a badass and I got this and I'm gonna show you all the ways that I got it and you don't have to worry about me. So ⁓ it's just kinda sorry, my dog is starting to moan. So I'm gonna let him out in a second. But it's just showing again, it's just showing people the reframe, like an education. moment of like what's okay, what's not okay, how to say things better. And but I think also just trying to remember that everyone just is trying to connect. You know, we live in this social media world and connection is genuine connection is so hard these days. And I think we're all just trying to figure it out. Like you know, agree. I know. I just also want to caution somebody who thinks, okay, I just want to connect. When you are postpartum at two months, three months, you're not totally you either if I recall. Right. And so yeah, while in I don't and good on you for wanting to choose the best. I typically f am in that same camp, ⁓ thinking like, surely they're not trying to kill me with their words. You know, surely not. ⁓ however If it does the girls. Yeah, they're home. ⁓ yay. Well, we'll wrap this up. ⁓ I feel like the cautionary part of it would be that you don't, you know, yes, maybe somebody is trying to connect, and I love that. That that's your approach to everything. I think that's a great thing. But what if someone's not? And so education wise, I think the takeaway might be for somebody to realize, okay, this might like slay them. So maybe If I'm giving that kind of ⁓ I don't even know if it's advice. It was kind of a like, are you sure you're up to the job? Like, maybe give more context. Hey, do you have someone on speech? Like saying the other things that you filled in the gaps with ⁓ may be a little gentler. And so if you are trying to connect, go for it. But also try to see where these this other person is maybe coming from. ⁓ and w where they are mentally and emotionally at the time. So true. And I always try to also think I'm like, I look at their profile if I don't know this person in real life or see them in public. And I look at their profile and I'm like, are you a boomer? Because usually it's a boomer that says things like that. It's got the same like your baby should have socks on tone. You know? Like it's the same the lady in the grocery store that's like, where's her hat? It's that it's that same person. And they text differently. I swear they text differently. They they like It's like shorthand. Yes. Yes. That is so funny. Was this a boomer? I I mean I can only assume it was. I have a lot of those. I have a lot of those. Well, then that's good. Context does matter there too, because you can give a little bit of a pass ⁓ in that way. Yeah. Well, Sarah, I'm sure you have more, but If you couldn't hear, 'cause maybe the the audio will pull it back, but her girls just got home from school. Alex has to go get her kiddos. My husband got my kiddo back home from school. And so we all have to go, which is great that we have to go for this reason. ⁓ Sarah, Alex, thank you both so very much for being on here today, for talking so openly about everything. I hope everybody ⁓ well, I hope everyone connects with you online, Sarah, and not with you. Alex, because you ain't on it. ⁓ But I will put ⁓ I will put Sarah's information on there if you don't already know who she is in the show notes. And ⁓ if you have any questions for any of us, please reach out. I will put something in there for Alex, don't you worry. ⁓ and everyone else, I hope you have a great rest of your week. ⁓ until next time, I hope you take care. Thank you.