Episode 13: Deep Grief With Two Little Lights with Whitney Parker

Small Batch Sound: Hey everyone and welcome back to Confessions of a Slow Cooker. I'm Ashlyn Blue, and today I'm going to be talking with a person that I have known a lot longer than I thought I had. ⁓ on my way over here to the studio, I was like, Well, when did I meet Whitney Parker? And I'm one of those, I feel like I'm one of those people who ⁓ thinks like 20 years ago was the 80s, ⁓ which is not the case. I and before we started taping, I asked Whitney. How long have we known each other? And we settled on 2008, which is a long time ago. So I'm old. We old. ⁓ Whitney Parker. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Okay, so we, like I said, we met back in 2008. Yes. You ⁓ were graduating col about to graduate college in 2009. I had just graduated in December 2007, and I was starting my music career at the time. And so And you are in music business as well. So it's kinda this is like a weird throwback totally got the days now. Yes. Yeah, right. None of neither of us do it anymore. Yeah. All right. So Whitney Parker, ⁓ again, thank you for being on here today. And I just wanna start ⁓ I want you to start rather where you wanna start. So take it away. Okay. Well, I I thought I would just kind of walk you through we mean, we knew each other in college a little bit and we haven't really had a lot of contact since. So yeah, I've had a kind of a crazy journey to motherhood. And I thought I would just kind of walk you through a little bit of it and hopefully it can resonate with some people listening. so I got married in twenty thirteen and probably about four years into marriage, we've decided we were ready to have children. so we got pregnant, like didn't try for long, maybe two or three months, got pregnant. and I mean, it's crazy how exciting it is and how you immediately feel different. Like you immediately feel like a mom, like you have this new role. ⁓ and we were pretty young and naive and you know. told a lot of I mean not a lot of people, but like told our family and celebrated with them, even though, you know, it was a we were probably four weeks pregnant. I mean, it was super early. and ⁓ we ended up miscarrying that baby at about eight weeks. So that was like I was at work, like started having some cramps. Had not really been sick, which was worrisome to me. ⁓ had a little bit of spotting and yeah, just kind of panicked. Went home, called my doctor. My doctor's like, you're probably fine at, you know. At this point I hadn't even been to the to the doctor to like have a have a first checkup or anything like that. and yeah, so ended up having that miscarriage at home. And that was like Really, I mean, you hear that, you know, miscarriages are so common and so many people have them, but it was really shocking for me. I mean, I think part of that was just, you know, being kind of young and naive and just like, ⁓ everything will go perfectly. ⁓ this was so easy so far. ⁓ but it really rattled me. ⁓ and it was it was really it was emotionally painful, it was physically painful. I think really. You know, it was it was I I've had multiple miscarriages and that was my most physically painful miscarriage. And and so after that there was like quite a fear that ⁓ of of the actual process of miscarriage. Like, you know, anytime I would get pregnant, well, I've got to stay home. We can't travel, like, you know, I was very worried about where something could happen. Right. ⁓ I'm so sorry about that. Thank you. Thanks. I can I think my takeaway from that pregnancy really was, you know, of of course this was like my first experience with it, but when you have a miscarriage, you have to go, ⁓ first of all, you you have to go to the doctor and they like do an ultrasound, a vaginal ultrasound. They're gonna make sure that there's nothing there. And then you have to go back like every other day ⁓ for a blood draw. Really until your levels are I I don't know what they need to be, but until they're like they should be pre-pregnancy. ⁓ can take weeks. So I did not know this. Yeah. It's it's really awful because you're you're grieving. ⁓ it seems like this day and age they would maybe I don't know, have like separate waiting rooms or some kind of something. But you walk into this office and like the first question is, When's your due date? Or how far along are you? ⁓ my God. And it's like, I'm I'm I'm not pregnant. Like I'm I just had a miscarriage. And you and the you have to say it. It's like write it in my file, people. So so I don't think you forfeit. Yeah. So that was really really hard. It was really hard to like day after day go sit in this waiting room and yeah, just kind of sit with all these like happy, expectant mothers and how many days or will did it take you to get back to a a regular or your pre-levels? You know, I don't remember it in like prepping for this and thinking through my story, it's crazy how much I have blocked out. I understand that. Crazy. I and I've listened to your episodes on IVF and like ⁓ I only know that stuff because I wrote everything down and kept everything. I wish I would have. Like I wish I would have journal through the process or ⁓ it's it's wild how little I remember and how like all consuming it is when it's happening. It's so all consuming when it's happening. You think it's like seared into your memory. And then I mean, when I was pre prepping for those three episodes about IVF, I was like, ⁓ wow. And ⁓ luckily I am so type A that, you know, I was able to keep it. I I don't even remember planning to keep it though. Like it it's ⁓ even that part is a little bit blacked out. So I discovered it. I knew I kept some things, but I didn't remember keeping everything. So and I I'm thankful. But ⁓ it's helpful for people. I mean I would yeah I wish I had kept it. And some of it was like, ⁓ yeah, I remember that but A lot of it a lot of it I have probably blocked. So it's okay. It's okay. Whatever you haven't blocked, yeah. ⁓ and whatever you're willing to share about everything, that's good enough for everybody. Okay. ⁓ so after that ⁓ that miscarriage, you said you've had multiple. So what was next? So next, ⁓ and I I don't remember how long it took me to get my levels back, but it's okay. I mean, it was like multiple trips there. so then ⁓ was pretty nervous to try to get pregnant again. but kind of started right away, like right as soon as the doctor would clear you. I think I think you have to wait after a miscarriage like six weeks, maybe. That sounds that sounds right. ⁓ so pretty much started trying right away. I think maybe got pregnant in two months. was super nervous about that. I mean, just lots of fear around are we gonna have a miscarriage again? But my doctor was very much like, you know, this happens a lot to people. It's unlikely it would happen twice. so I kind of clung to those words and, you know, was nervous but forged ahead. I don't think I was trying to remember if they had me. Go ahead and take, they might have had me go ahead and take like a baby aspirin. And and I think I did take progesterone ⁓ with this pregnancy. ⁓ because my numbers were a little bit low. But all in all, it was a healthy, perfect pregnancy. And I had my son. And yeah, it was just like, okay, all that's behind us. Like, this is great. This is gonna be so easy from here on out. I had this one hiccup and now. Here we are, we're moving forward. so when my son was about two, ⁓ we decided we were ready to try for a second. so that I I again like got pregnant pretty quickly and had a positive pregnancy test, and then like a couple of days later started bleeding. And this was more like regular period. So I was like, Okay, did I get was it a false positive? False positive. Yeah. What happened here? I'm not sure. So called the doctor, went in for a blood test, there was nothing there. They said you were likely you were likely pregnant. I mean, I think a false positive is pretty rare. Yeah. ⁓ you were pregnant and had an early miscarriage. So then the fear kind of comes back. Is this going to be something that is a struggle for me? Is this going to be something that I face, you know, over and over again? But they were again really encouraging, like, you know, this is ⁓ you know, you've had a healthy pregnancy. Like we know that you can get pregnant. We know you can stay pregnant. so try not to worry about it. And every, you know, everything else looked good. on paper, like b labs and things like that. So I can't remember how long we waited between the next pregnancy, but it was early 2020. Okay. I was pregnant again. So this would be my fourth pregnancy. Goodness. and things were going well. I I think I went for an eight-week Ultrasound things were good. At that point, I was labeled high risk because I had had multiple losses. but yeah, we even like we took our young son to that first ultrasound. It was like at a high risk place and he had no idea what was going on, but it was like we heard a heartbeat. ⁓ I think it was at six weeks, maybe. and everything was good. So I I was feeling like a little more sick with that pregnancy, which was really reassuring to me. and my husband had a work trip that we were gonna go on that February. And so Before I went, it's like I would have turned 12 weeks while we were on that trip. And I was like, I've just got to go. Like, I just need like the peace of mind. I didn't feel like anything was wrong really. Like, I just wanted the reassurance and felt like I with multiple losses, like I needed more reassurance. ⁓ so I made an appointment for an ultrasound. They allowed me to come in for one. ⁓ and At that ultrasound, it actually like a little life context during this pregnancy. We were about to remodel our house. So we were moving that day. We were moving into a friend's guest house and we had packed up all of our stuff. And my sister came over to watch our son. And my husband was moving stuff and I headed to this ultrasound. And they We're like, okay, you're you're 12 weeks, so you ⁓ we should hear it. Like we don't have to do a vaginal ultrasound, we can do a normal one. they got the little Doppler out, and you know, if you've had one of those, you know that like feeling every few like when you I'm I'm like hands are sweating. Yeah, talking about listening to you like I remember this viscerally now. You feel so nervous and ⁓ until you hear that heartbeat and you're just So they couldn't find a heartbeat. And they were like, okay, well, don't worry. It's probably just this machine. We'll go get another one. They go out to the hallway. They wheel in another one. Still no heartbeat. So then I'm starting to panic. And they they leave me. They're like, we need they this was just like in a normal exam room. Yeah. So they're like, we're gonna get you into one of the actual ultrasound rooms. We'll do a vaginal ultrasound. We'll definitely, you know, you're right on the cusp. Maybe we can't hear it. so I waited in that room by myself for like 10 minutes. ⁓ and I think I think I called my husband during that time and he came. But ⁓ got to And by the way, yeah, you're like you know, like you're in a gown, you're sort of you're exposed anyway, you're yeah, legs, you know, all these things that's so uncomfortable anyway. Yeah. And then waiting there for 10 minutes, how long did that feel? Yeah. Like an hour? Yeah, it's not like a million years because and then you're running through all these worst case scenarios and I'm trying to like calm down, you know. I mean, of course, like my heart rate is accelerated. Right. You you've got something in there and you're hoping that it's not gonna you know ⁓ yeah. And I I'm literally I'm like panicking in my I I know where this goes. And and I I'm panic I know mine w actually ended up with my kid, but I and I ⁓ my gosh, I I I literally I I'm having a hard time. Continue. Yeah. It was awful. It was awful. And and the truth is, is like you're already attached. I mean, I think that I was like confused before I had experienced miscarriage about well, how can you be attached? It's been six weeks, it's been eight weeks, it's been twelve weeks. You're attached. ⁓ and and it's I mean, you already love that baby, so it's hard. So anyways, they yeah, they came back in, they got me into an ultrasound room. I think by that point my husband was there and ⁓ yeah, no heartbeat. No heartbeat. So I I can't remember what the baby was measuring, but you know, it had been yeah somewhere around ten or eleven weeks. So at that point they take me back to an exam room and they're like, We're gonna have to have a DNC. which is, you know, where they take all of that like fetal material. Tissue, yeah. it needs to be tomorrow. You know, I think they need to do it pretty fast. Like it's not safe for the mom to just carry that around. and then they started talking to me about genetic testing. You you're gonna need genetic testing because at this point, like if we count that second one, then this is three. so at this point we think this is not a coincidence, like something is not right. so she gave me she gave me a name of a geneticist that day. She gave me a name of ⁓ therapist that day that only worked with people going through infertility. And ⁓ and then we made the appointment for the DNC the next morning. So that was that was a really hard one. I mean, at this point, like I had a healthy son and I think I had just wrapped my brain around this like other child we were gonna welcome into our family. And that was a hard one. That was tough. And at this point. You know your body can do it. That was always my my wonder, could it do it? You know, not having any time in my life a positive pregnancy test until literally my kid who ⁓ who is my only child. And so at this point, what Like, do you feel like you're straddling two worlds? You know, like you're you I feel like this sec this this third one got further along than the other two miscarriages. So I mean like they say like you when you pass a certain amount, you probably are in the clear. But that's not really the case. ⁓ you weren't necessarily to the 20, obviously, but like I I know some people who made it past the 20 and still I can had late miscarriage. Right? And so and and again, I I I did have a miss. embryo carriage, I guess. Like I I didn't it didn't take. But ⁓ and that was devastating. But I have not been through this and I did not ha need any sort of DNC or anything of that nature. So going home to where you're not gonna be for much longer because you're moving elsewhere that same day. Mm-hmm. The displacement of that, knowing that you have ⁓ a dead baby inside of you, that sounds terribly like start to say. ⁓ just that twenty-four hour period sounds like hell. Yeah, it really was. ⁓ I remember going back to the guest house we were staying in and just like none of our stuff was there and like I didn't have any comforts of home. Yeah. of course I was devastated and sad and my my sister lived in town and came over and was helping to take care of my son and kinda letting me rest and yeah, it was awful. I mean it was terrible. Like how do you even sleep? Yeah, I don't remember if I slept much. I mean, I think I just I mean it's it's like a moment of like kind of deep, deep grief where you just want to go away for a little bit and like I think you just want to go to sleep. You know, you want to sleep ⁓ a week later, you know, to all be over. and and then you still had like the anxiety of this surgery that was gonna happen the next day that you've I've never done that. I'd never had any kind of surgery. so just the idea well, I mean, I had delivered my son, so you know, I had been to a hospital and gone through that kind of stuff. But yeah. Go back to this delivered my son to basically deliver a dead yeah child that like I wouldn't get to ever know. It was a lot. It was a lot of grief. It was a lot to wrap my brain around. and I was very emotional about it. I mean, I was like I remember in the room, in the prep room, the day of the surgery, and I I truly my my OB was wonderful and she she had walked with me through a few losses at this point. And she yeah, I mean she came in and like I remember asking her questions and getting emotional and She was like tearing up and crying with us. And ⁓ it was yeah, it was really it was comforting that she cared. not too clinical. Yeah. Yeah. Just to place it and like for Nashville's after I guess this probably I think I had a DNC around the late January, I think, of twenty twenty. So then ⁓ you know, around mid February, I start I'm really stressed. I mean, I'm stressed thinking like I might not have another kid, ⁓ which felt awful to me. I mean, it felt horrible. ⁓ because I'm I think this was one of the first times where you're kind of faced with the reality that like two things are true at one time. And like the joy of raising my son and And just experiencing life with him every day was just so joyful. And the sadness that came with this is the last time I'm gonna be able to do this. Like I need to really soak it up. ⁓ it was hard. You I'm sure you can relate to that and understand. Yeah. Yeah. And and it's also I think it also like makes you a better parent because you Yeah. You really soak it up and you really care. I feel very present in my motherhood motherhood motherhood journey. Yeah. And I think it is it is I I wanna say probably also because I'm an older parent ⁓ and I'm not as busy as I would have been, you know, ten years ago. But more than anything else, ⁓ I know he's it. Yeah. And I am I don't take any of it for granted. And I constantly stare at him like I'm like luckily he doesn't notice me staring at him. Otherwise he'd be like, My mom is psycho. ⁓ I constantly look at him, I'm like, you are the embryo that could. You are the embryo that could. And yeah, I'm I'm totally there with you. I wanted to meant ⁓ say one thing about the what I assume. 'Cause again, I haven't been through this part ⁓ of miscarriage. That you know, normally when you go to the hospital for something, even when I I there's an IBF piece to this as well, so and you'll get to that, but normally when you go to the hospital, you're going for something to be fixed or taken care of or cleaned out, like for good, like for something that th that you might not elect to do, maybe you have to do, but like a surgery is meant to repair or a baby is being delivered or whatever. It's you usually I feel like in your favor. And this is just like the meanest trick. Mm-hmm. Because you're going for your health, yes, but you're not coming home with anything other than emptiness. Yeah. ⁓ I imagine. I imagine. I That is And just like you said, going to get in the same place that you would deliver a baby, you're now delivering something you can't take home. Mm-hmm. Yep. And I remember saying to my doctor in the room before, like crying and saying, like, this this feels like an abortion. And and I don't say that to like get political and whatever. Yeah. I say that just like I didn't want that. Like I wanted this baby. No doubts about it. And she was just had to tell me, like, that's not what this is. Like, there is no way, like, this baby is not viable. Like, it's gone. ⁓ so yeah. And how did that weigh on you? 'Cause you come from a spiritual background, yeah, religious background. ⁓ that term is tech technically what it was. Yeah. But not in the way that we have come up to know it. Yeah. and did did that carry on with you? Because I know you had the other two miscarriages, but they didn't seem nearly as like medically assisted to to take out the like you had to do some medical stuff. Yeah. No I mean, no, I think I needed her reassurance in that moment. I mean, I think I already knew like this not what this is, but I think I needed to hear her say it. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, and it was helpful for me to hear her say it. I I I think after she did, like I was fine. I I good good will have let that go. There was nothing they could have done. It's not like we could have done something to make this baby alive again, you know? Right. Right. Yeah. So it felt like the next step. It was just a hard step. Yeah. Yeah. I know so many, so many people are in that. So I f I've I know people who have had to make a decision. Yeah. Yeah. And There's no good out of any of this. But I imagine it would be a little simpler if the decision is made for you. ⁓ yeah. I'm sure it is. I can't imagine just the sh the the grief and like guilt and shame that you would probably put on yourself for having to make a decision like that. Yeah. Yeah. It's that's the thing. It's like when you get pregnant, when you're trying to get pregnant, you are opening yourself up to a lot of Hardship, right? And potentially. Yeah. Potentially. And that's I mean, I I think that's the thing with any relationship that we enter into is you know, there's a great chance for loss and heartache, but you do it 'cause it's worth it. but yeah, d I mean, taking that on, deciding you want to be a mom and going for it is is not for the weak. No, it is not. my child's about to be two. I feel very yeah. I feel very weak myself, but ⁓ Okay, so after that, well what was next? So after that, ⁓ genetic testing. Yeah, well, I was so stressed. I mean, I was like yeah, started to have these like heart palpitations which I've never experienced before. And how old are you at this point? I was, let's see, in twenty twenty six years. I was thirty-two. Okay. Mm-hmm. So not yet geriatric. Not yet. I got there. I got there. ⁓ but yeah, I like it was just it just felt weird in my chest. Like it just felt like not even like well, yeah, I guess like I couldn't catch my breath sometimes. And so I went to a cardiologist. And he hooked me up to this, you know, heart monitor I had to wear for twenty four hours. And just kind of a funny story is to place it for Nashville's. It was it was the night of the tornado that came through. So not I mean not funny. That's not funny. But I was hooked up before that night, that evening, I was hooked up to this heart monitor and actually was at went to Sperry's with with a friend and we're sitting at sitting at the bar at Sperries having a martini, like trying to be normal, trying to just try to enjoy life and calm down and have a good evening. And then later that night this tornado comes through and I'm hooked up to all these wires and stuff. And it's like I'm sorry, that's not funny. Right. It's not funny, but we're in this guest house. I there's no basement. Like I don't I'm we're trying to figure out like do we grab our son and run into the It was just it was really stressful and it's like this is probably not a typical twenty four hour period for them to monitor, but ⁓ well take into account that I almost died. Okay. Yeah, exactly. but I did go back, you know, for them to review it and and it was just funny that their, you know, their response is you're under a lot of stress. Like you need to try to relax. And it's like Thanks. Yeah. No shit I'm under a lot of stress. Like I'm I'm sorry. People tell people to relax. Think I saw a meme about it, like calm down, like has helped zero people. Yeah, not helped people. And I I feel like I actually say it's my kids a lot. So just keep that in mind. but yeah, so that was not fun. So, anyways, then I go meet with a geneticist, and she was amazing, ⁓ and just kind of walked through, did like a genogram where she like mapped out ⁓ my family, mapped out my husband's family, for like health history. Yeah. I actually had met with her, I think at my son's 20th, ⁓ like the big ultrasound that you do. Like she somehow she had been there. But anyways, she's incredible. and but even she was like, I I do not think she was like, you could have some genetic thing, but like, I don't think so. Like it's not showing up really in your family history. I mean, there's a couple miscarriages and like my grandmother had had a couple miscarriages, but she's like, I I don't really see anywhere where there's something obvious. but we're gonna do this, you know, blood test or whatever and figure it out. ⁓ so I go back into her office and yeah, she tells me that I have an inversion on my fourth chromosome. It's a paracentric aversion, ⁓ inversion, which means it's the center of the chromosome. Okay. I had to like read up on it a little bit before that like it was so overwhelming to like have all this information thrown at me at the time while I'm still like just kind of grieving and sad. And ⁓ And I imagine you wanna know Yes, you want like quickly but also yeah, but also the actual answer can, yeah, be overwhelming and potentially devastating. Yeah, exactly. so yeah, I mean, I found out all this information, trying to understand it. Their advice was IVF. So that we could do genetic testing on the embryos and we would know if this, if the baby had was a carrier or was was affected by it. ⁓ there's all these different things. I mean, it's crazy how smart these people are and how little they know about this because it's first of all, it's rare. It's not a chromosome that a lot of people have a problem with. ⁓ it's not like a common one. so there's very little research on it. And And then they just kind of throw all these numbers at you, like, well, there's a 30% chance that you would have a you know, live born who live birth, yeah, is you know, has a lot of health issues, and but there's a 50% chance of this, and there's a fifteen percent chance, and it's just hard to process it all and to understand it and to know that like now I know the risk and I'm entering into it willingly. And that feels like a burden. You know, that feels like a burden on me. And it feels like a burden on my son that I have. Like now I have to think about what if I do this, we have a child who has major medical issues. And, you know, we spend a lot of the next decade in hospitals with that child and we miss out on our son's life. Like it was like a really hard balance. I think if you just naturally have a child with medical needs. I mean I it is what it is. It is what it is. I don't think that's easy at all. I think that's so incredibly hard. And you didn't know about it. You didn't know was a possibility and you didn't choose it and other people aren't affected by your decision. So it just felt like a really heavy weight to carry. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ so we kinda let that that is partially why we are done trying. Really? Mm-hmm. Because I'm my eggs are forty. Mm-hmm. You know. And I don't have any more. I didn't have it's not like I went in and did ⁓ IVF for egg to freeze my eggs. Right. I went in, they got all of the only ones that made it through the whole process. The the only embryos we have, one as a kid, one did not make make it. And so I had to have to start all over again. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. And I don't I don't want to rock the boat, right? Yeah, it makes sense. I mean not not to mention like the time it takes to do all of it. Yeah. And all the the fact that I live three hours away from from the from the place to do it. Like I'd actually have to like leave and take take time off from everything else I'm doing and including my with my son. Right. And yeah, I totally you have to weigh all those things. Yeah. Especially when you know when you when it gets really clinical for you it's not that like, ⁓ well we'll just roll the dice. You know, we'll just see. Yeah. And I was just reading this email from the geneticist that I had gotten that year. And it was like we think that your inversion, when we measure it, we think it's thirty-three percent of the entire length of the chromosome. Okay. we predict with an abnormal live born, y or the chances of you having an abnormal live born normally happen less than thirty percent. And it's just like so they're like we feel better? Or we basically guess that you would ⁓ miscarry the baby. It would be so like unviable. In is that a word? Unviable, yeah. It is now. Okay, perfect. Invial, unviable. I think it's unviable. That or not viable. Right. That you would say. But It does measure pretty close to an abnormal live born. And that sounds so scientific, an abnormal live born, but this is how they have to talk about this kind of stuff. So yeah, it was just really like, what do we do now? ⁓ we kind of left that first meeting and my husband was was like, We're doing IVF and I was like, No way. Like I could not possibly wrap my brain around giving myself shots and Just all the things, like, no, I've done this before naturally and it was easy and I'm not gonna now do it a hard way. Like it just felt too much, like too overwhelming. Then we started wrestling with it and we kind of switched positions and then we, you know, I mean, it was just like we're we're seeking counsel. We're trying to decide what's right. We did have this like component on like, did we even were we even okay with IVF? Like We wondered like, is is it okay to do? ⁓ is it worth doing? I mean, like, we had a child already. Like, why couldn't we just be happy and grateful and satisfied and that be that? so yeah, it was really hard to wrestle with that. ⁓ in the midst of that, we went to our ⁓ pastor at our church to ask him his opinion, to ask him what, you know, what does the church think about IBF? Like what is this okay for us to do? And ⁓ you know, he was, I think we knew he was probably against it. ⁓ but he was like, you need to talk to our elder. One of our elders is a doctor. And ⁓ Like he knows way more about this than I do. I I can't possibly like answer your questions, but he probably can. So we had this phone call with an elder at our church. and he basically told us we would go to hell if we did IBM. Helpful, thanks. Very helpful. I guess I'm going. Me too? See ya there. Yep. It was really it was really awful. And I'm sorry. Hold on. I'm sorry. Yeah. I wonder what that man would say to my kid. Like w you you saying what what my life is is something that will send My mom wanting me to come into this world will send her to hell. What does that say about me? You know? Yeah. How valuable is my life? I think that was the hardest part for me is because I already like became like on guard and defensive of this child that I might have one day. And was like, I I felt very isolated by that. And like if you couldn't Love my kid, which he didn't say that, but if you couldn't love my kid or you couldn't think my kid was created by God in the same way that my son was, then like I didn't want anything to do with you. Like it was very like protective. Like, no, I'm at the same time, COVID's happening. Church isn't happening in person, it's happening on you know, the computer. We're isolated from our neighbors and our friends. Everybody was in COVID, but also we're at this other place, living in this other place. Right. ⁓ it was just very isolating and really stressful to like I I didn't even want to I didn't even want to tune into church. Right. Like I was mad. I was hurt. Yeah. ⁓ and it really wasn't their opinion that hurt me so badly. Like everyone's entitled to their opinion, however they want to interpret things, like, okay. What was so hurtful to me in that situation was that elder told us that and knew we were wrestling with this big decision. And then never once checked in with us. Never once said, How are you doing? What are you thinking about this? Like, how can I pray for you about this? How can I help you? I'm a doctor. Could I, could I I mean, he knew nothing about genetic counseling. He knew nothing about IBF. He knew nothing about women's health in general. Like, I'm sure he had a connection. Like, he didn't offer anything except for his opinion that we were gonna go to hell. Which is not a medical opinion, by the way. It's not a medical opinion. I feel like I feel like from what from what you're saying, the pastor was like, Maybe you should talk to someone with some medical experience. Like that was the reason. That's true. He like, Yeah, I this cause he could have offered that same thing as the pastor, right? Like he could have. I feel like he was passing it off to somebody with more put hopefully someone who would look into it or have a little bit more of a medical bent. Yeah. Because this is more of a clinical thing. Yeah. But he just he skipped over all that part. Yeah. Completely skipped over it. Just you're gonna go to hell. And just place that on your heart. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, exactly. ⁓ So that was hard for me. And I was like, well, done there. Like, I'm not not gonna be going back to that church, which was sad because I loved a lot of people at that church. And a lot of people don't feel like that at that church and would have been shocked had they known that. And also wasn't gonna like bad mouth him and spread that around. But it was not helpful at all. And in fact, it just placed such an extra burden of shame and guilt. on me while I was wrestling was should we do this, should we not? And like I'm very mad right now. I know, I know. I ⁓ spent like a year like that. ⁓ man. And ⁓ yeah, it was really hard because then I was wrestling with like what I wanted was another healthy child that was like my son. I mean I wanted another I mean 'cause we talked about adoption, right? But it's like I wanted another Him, like another one of me and yeah my husband. So, anyways, that was hard. ⁓ so while we're wrestling with it, we are like trying to, you know, decipher like understand everything that this geneticist is saying, understand potential eternal repercussions. I mean, just like wow, it just felt huge, ⁓ huge. And And we decided, okay, we're we're just gonna keep trying. We're just gonna keep trying. Like the chances are we're not gonna have a ch like it's a low chance that we're gonna make it to a birth and you know, there'd be a medical major medical problem. so we tried we tried twice more. I was pregnant twice more. Two more miscarriages. My gosh. Mm-hmm. So one was kind of like that second one, positive tests, started bleeding a few days later. Yeah. Yeah. another one ended up being an ectopic pregnancy. ⁓ Clue how that came into the picture. No clue. But they just very early on, from the second I got a positive test after that first miscarriage, I had to go in for blood draws every other day. They wanted to monitor the progression. So With that one, it was like, Okay, your numbers are going up but not enough. And then they started like leveling out. They were confused. So they realized it was ectopic. ⁓ I think what they do with it an ectopic, I'm pretty sure I went in for a shot, which they give you it's like the same shot that they would give you for chemo. I don't understand it. Basically, it dissolves any tissue there. I mean, they Again, that was another issue where I was like, is this an abortion? They were like, No, you're gonna die if you don't have this. First of all, we can't even find this fetus, this embryo. Like we can't find it. It's living in a place it should not be growing. Yeah. And it's dangerous at one point. Maybe not living, but yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's not doing well. Like the numbers are down. Like this isn't a viable pregnancy either. ⁓ so after that, like I just remember So this is number five? Yeah, five. So I just remember driving in to the doctor, like saying goodbye to my son that morning and just driving in to the OB to get this shot. And I was just like, I've had enough. Like I can't keep doing Whitney, I'm so this is like it's a lot. I mean, and then also like I don't want to compare my grief to other people's grief, but there are plenty of people who, you know miscarry way later in a pregnancy and like I can't I can't imagine that. I can't imagine that and then I mean worse. I mean there are people whose children die. Yeah but your grief is your grief when it happens. You can't you can't I d I spent a lot of time comparing my story to other people's not because I want it to be ⁓ harder, but because I think a mine is easier and I don't want I feel like a lot of people don't talk about their stories because they're afraid that it's not gonna be bad enough. You know, that it's like, well, who am I to complain or or be sad by my story when someone else had it way worse? Like that can't be why we don't talk. Yeah. You know, about this stuff. And that's that's that's a ⁓ that's a shame for anyone who feels like they can't speak because they had something a little less difficult. Yeah. Like I mean, spoiler alert, we're both divorced. ⁓ and I felt that way about divorce too. Like I didn't have a kid when and so I didn't have to deal with that part. So I felt like guilty for having a hard time post post divorce when other people had it worse than I did because they had to deal with the the the parenting thing. Right. And it's just like, no, your your grief, your negative is your negative, you're living it. You lived all the stuff ahead of it. You're having to live with it from this point forward. Yeah. And I don't think anyone's ever gonna win that game. Yeah. You know? It's a bad game to play. Yeah. So let your grief be as bad as it was for you. You went through five miscarriages, lady. Yeah. Five. That's not something to be like, well, I know other people have it worse. No, that's terrible. Yeah. I know. I know. I don't know why our culture does that really, but we do. We do. ⁓ but you're exactly right. I mean, yeah, it was awful and it was all consuming at the time and you know. Do you feel betrayed by your body at this point? Like I always felt like I was like, what is wrong with me that's You know, I can't I felt get pregnant. I felt like very in tune with my body and very grateful for my body. And I try to remember back now as like I you know, struggle with everything women struggle with. But like Yeah. I try to remind myself, like, my body has been through so much and like it protected me from a lot. Like I don't like, yes, I wanted those children and they weren't viable. And I then like my body knew I don't know. I just I feel grateful. Yeah. ⁓ you trust trusted Yeah. You trust your body to do the thing it needs to do. Yeah. That's really good. Yeah. That's really healthy, actually. So you didn't go through IVF. We did. So so You did. Didn't we didn't. We we had two more miscarriages. We didn't go through IVF. And then after those two, we went through IVF. so that geneticist was ⁓ kind of referred me to ⁓ there's two places in Nashville referred me to one of those that she had been in school with and they basically were like, you're a perfect candidate for IBF because you can carry a baby. You just have this genetic piece that we can we can work around that. Yeah. and yeah, so it was ⁓ my IBF experience, I almost don't remember a lot of it because I think I had been through so much already and everything felt easier than what I had been through. Like Okay, just tell me what to do. So now I give myself this shot. Great. Let's do it. Like we're on the home stretch here. We've been through like every kind of miscarriage you can have, basically. And it's just like Yeah, you had the whole the full experience. Yep. So all flavors. Yes. so yeah, it felt you know, I remember the pieces of it. I I think again, my body like somehow responded really well to IVF. I didn't feel Like you hear about like the bloating and the discomfort. I didn't have that. Like I felt good. we got a lot of eggs. we fertilized only a few because we were very intentional about just taking it one step at a time. And yeah, and then I have a baby girl. And it was wonderful and yeah, easy, honestly. Like once I just gave in to Like I was so resistant. ⁓ and yeah, just very thankful that that it worked out that way. I'm so glad. Mm-hmm. And when when did you have ⁓ your baby girl? In two thousand twenty two. Twenty two, okay. Yeah. So she's ⁓ man, that was a rough year for us. That's when we tried to start. Yeah. But we couldn't. Yeah. Yeah. When I look back at the timeline of mine. It's really, I mean, from I think I looked at this last night, from twenty sixteen until twenty twenty two, from first miscarriage to my daughter's birth. I mean, that's not that long. No, but it feels long. When you are trying to get pregnant or if you're trying to do to do IBF, yeah. Start IBF, everything is like elongated. I felt that way after divorce too. Every day felt like five days. Absolutely. And it and And then when I look back, I was like, wow, I I really was like two years before I met my ⁓ lovely, wonderful human of a husband. Mm-hmm. But it felt like ten years. I would have said, I've been, you know, it's ten years now, but which is crazy. That's so hard to believe. But yes. I know. I know. ⁓ yeah. But I mean, you think about all those that's seven pregnancies. And it was in that short amount of time. I mean, kinda wild. You have a son, you have a daughter. Did you feel complete after this? I did, yeah, I did. and well, I say that. Yeah, I did. My my story kind of takes a turn there. Pot twist. ⁓ hot twist yeah, pot twist. my ⁓ I ended up getting divorced ⁓ after that second. child was born. ⁓ yeah, there was just so you're in the IVF Club and the Divorce Club. I'm the all the clubs. ⁓ We have a very great club of both of those. So if anyone wants to join, I'm just kidding. It's not something you elect to join. You don't want to, yeah. But a lot of good people in them. Yeah, absolutely there are. So yeah, my my story takes a turn. And I think I probably at that point was kind of so blindsided by that. especially in light of that we had so intentionally had another child together. that I don't even know that I've processed like there was not an option for my family to not be at that point. It was yeah, that was it. So Yeah. Wow, that is an interesting yeah. ⁓ no, I don't think it would have been over at that point. Okay. ⁓ had I stayed married. But yeah, I didn't I didn't have that option. Did you see that coming? I do I do feel happy and like yeah, I'm so, so incredibly grateful for my two children and yeah, at this point like I wouldn't change anything and right. and also being a single mom is hard. So I don't know how I could deal with that. I imagine more kids. ⁓ being a mom in general is hard. Yeah. Absolutely. Yes. So ⁓ yeah, I guess the timing of that would have pre precluded that doesn't even sound like a word all of a sudden. That's a word. Would have kept you f it is. Okay. ⁓ I guess the timing of that would have definitely c just taken that off the table. Did for you. Man. After ⁓ all of that. Yeah. Yeah. After all that you went through, that just is I don't want to say cherry on top because that puts a ⁓ well maybe a sarcastic cherry on top. ⁓ and man, and then so that's just another loss at that point for you to endure. ⁓ And this is not a a d a a podcast about divorce at all, but But it doesn't really matter in my experience. It doesn't really matter if the two people want to stay married or don't want to stay married. Divorce is hard. You know, I I know a lot of people in this shitty divorce club and everybody's experience again is their experience. And it's n it's it's ⁓ it's a loss. It's a loss of the life that you thought you were signing up for one in one way or another. And to add insult to injury, you have just gone through all you did just to get that child. So I'm and that in that said, I'm so glad that this that child exists. You know, she is going to do great things because she was meant to be here. Absolutely. but yeah, that golly, you've been through the ringer. I r yeah, I really have. When I take a beat and think about it, yeah, I really am. Girl. Yeah, well it and and like and it's so interesting when you start to like think of your path like you were going through it really wasn't that long of time. But like think of all the things you went through, not just trying to get a baby. Exactly. From like renovation. Yes. Tornado, COVID, everything. Yeah. Well in that in that ten years, like from sixteen to to today to twenty six, it's all of that. Yeah, plus like Plus finding out, you know, blind side, ⁓ you're getting divorced and trying to fix it and trying to then actually getting divorced, then actually figuring out co parenting, then dealing with saying goodbye to my kids every other weekend. Like it's a lot. It's been it's been quite the decade. I'm looking forward to a new decade. Good thing. Yeah, I hear you. I Yeah. And so now we talked at the beginning a little bit about how you ⁓ how how how you we were both in the music industry at the time. What do you do now? ⁓ so I kind of when I realized like, wow, I'm I was a stay at home mom with my son. so horrible timing to like I was had waited so long for my daughter and then it was like, Okay, now I need to go back to work. So yeah, I just did what I was passionate about. I went back to school ⁓ for marriage and family therapy actually. So my hope is that I can help other couples in crisis kind of avoid this. Yeah. and then if it's unavoidable, I hope I can help people with divorce adjustment, with infertility, with grief and loss. yeah. What a perfect candidate for all of those things. You can come from a place of empathy, ⁓ understanding, and not no no judgment, you know. Yeah. Yeah. there is one good thing about going through all this. Mm-hmm. All the things that you and and I'm speaking for myself, but all the things that I've gone through to get where I am today have really made me, I feel like just a deeper human. They have forced me. To see how things can go wrong, but also how things can get better afterward. Yeah. And I don't wish pain on anyone, ⁓ loss, grief of that but it's unavoidable in a lot of ways. It is. Right? Like there something is going to happen at some point in your life. Absolutely. If it doesn't I don't know, like I feel like you're you're kind of on an island. Like if you can't there's something to be said about going through the pain and getting to the other side. Like I feel like more people felt like they could Have a conversation with me after ⁓ I went through something difficult because they saw more humanity in me. And I don't know if that means that I I seemed untouchable before or unap ⁓ unapproachable before. But I was like, I I realized after my divorce that I I was getting to talk to more people that I knew before. ⁓ I don't know. It was like it it like tip tipped something over a little bit and I don't know, my life I feel like has gotten better. Yeah. ⁓ it wasn't fun at the beginning. ⁓ but yeah, my I feel like my conversations are deeper. I feel like my my friendships are deeper because there's some common thread, even if I'm not talking to somebody who had any fertility or anyone who went through a divorce, like there's something about sharing that just I feel like just like it ties you a little bit more. In like in the foundation of a relationship, if you're willing to t to talk about the hard things, you know? Yeah, I think so. I yeah, I don't have a lot of patience ⁓ for the surface level conversations anymore. ⁓ well yeah, we're too old for that anyway. I don't have it I don't started after after my miscarriage. I really do. Interesting. Yeah. Just like no longer wanted to Deal with the everyday stuff like give me the grief, give me the yeah, give me what's hard. ⁓ yeah, or what's good, you know, but real stuff. Yeah, because and I also thought like during during my not getting pregnant, you know, on my own and then the IVF and then losing the first embryo, like I told people about it. I didn't post about it on like online or anything. ⁓ And there's nothing wrong with anyone who does. Like I'm just saying that was just not my way. But people knew and I thought, well, if I don't tell people when I'm going through the hard stuff, it's gonna be a lot harder for them to celebrate how far I've come if something good happens. That's true. You know, so I like didn't want to wait to tell them only the good. And I felt that way during my divorce too. Like I ha I I see that you're having a good life now, person who went through a divorce ten years ago, fifteen years ago. But what did you do in the hard parts? Yeah. Because I'm in the hard part right now, you know? Yeah. And I I wanna know like how did you get out of that? Or, you know, what turns did you make? And what would you have would you avoid if you were me? ⁓ you know, that's the stuff that has always really intrigued me. And the same goes for fertility ⁓ stories. It's like it's not about, well, we got pregnant. Like that's a great ending to a story, but it's not a story if you don't talk about like who wants to watch a movie where everything good The only things that happen are the good things, like the happy ever afters. Like no one watches that stuff. So why in the world would we do that to ourselves in our own lives? You know? And so again, that's not to say like you have to post about everything that went badly in your life either. And I'm not this is not about social media, but all we do typically see is the good. Yeah. Is the yay. And this finally happened. And I feel like we're selling ourselves short. Yes. ⁓ And so yeah, and I I think it's better ⁓ one on one. It's you know, not necessarily an announcement kind of thing to do and and you do have to go through fertility stuff a lot of times in private. Just like divorce in private, because there are so many things and you're not the only one going through it. That's the other thing, you know. but finding people in real life in real time, ⁓ I think can really make a difference because you don't attach blame. And attach ⁓ things, you know, someone can kind of challenge you in those moments to to bring you out of it. And having a partner or or a mother or father, you know, some a best friend, somebody who's checking in on you and knows what you're going through, I think is key. Yeah. ⁓ and then talking about it afterward, like we're doing. You know? It's it's helpful to process it. And and in thinking about, you know, doing this today, I realized like there's a lot I haven't really I haven't really processed. There's just a left. So ⁓ that was helpful. But I was I was thinking when you were saying or or a counselor, sorry. I forgot to I left out your Or therapists, please. ⁓ you know, after our first miscarriage, you would think like we wouldn't have told people that we were pregnant. We did the opposite. It was like we are going to need people there if we have another miscarriage. So it was like we told people even sooner after that. ⁓ and I think it is realizing, kind of just to echo what you said, ⁓ you you if you need people there, you need people there in good times and bad. And so the only way to do that is kind of to let them know, let fill them in on the whole story. ⁓ so bring them in at the beginning. Exactly. Next I want to do a segment called Hot Potato. Mm-hmm. You sort of already said something that I can go ahead and rape. That was one of my hot potatoes. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Going to hell for doing IVF, I'm pretty sure that's like a six out of five. I was thinking like fifteen, but yeah. Yeah, okay, okay. Like ⁓ we'll just have to get a lot more potatoes on the screen. ⁓ all right, to close, is there is there anything that I'm not laughing. Sorry. It's just that was so that was a lot. is there anything that through all of this I know you learned a lot about yourself, and obviously it has led you to your ⁓ new career in life, and I can't wait to to hear about how that goes ⁓ moving forward. And I think it will be so great for the people who see you, ⁓ especially if they know a little bit of your story. You don't have to tell them in person, like you can hear it here. ⁓ but is there anything through all the stuff that you've been through, is there anything that you would like like whittle it down to like something you w either wish you would have known or something that you would have done differently or just any advice that you could give from your experience. Again, this is not you telling someone else what to do, but based on what you have gone through, ⁓ is there anything you would tell someone out there listening going through the same thing? multiple miscarriages. ⁓ my goodness. and and IVF and or IVF. Mm-hmm. First of all, I feel I feel proud of how I dealt with my grief. It it's a hard thing to go through. And I feel like it made me, kind of like what we said earlier, a more present parent. It made me more ⁓ aware of and grateful for all the good things happening, like for me watching my son grow up, ⁓ kind of carrying both of those things at the same time, joy and pain at the same time. for me to not hide how I was feeling, but to process it and and grieve and then move like and then go be with my family. Like I can I just is there a class to learn how to deal with grief before you have it? No. Not that I no, not that I no, there is no class to learn pre grief how to deal with. Like how am I gonna deal with something I didn't see coming? Yeah. Five different times in five different ways. With ⁓ I'm going to hell on the side. And ⁓ I'm sorry. Because it's grief. Yeah. And how you handle it, yeah, there are there are more difficult ways or more not difficult, there are more I would say, you know, I would I would say maybe like don't go too heavy on the bottle. Or like there are ways to like that can hurt other people in your lives that can like maybe separate you from someone in a relationship. But sure however you dealt with it is how you dealt with it. Yeah, yeah. Because you had the grief. Yeah. And and I and I think that's why I want to share it. Is is I think it's I mean what you just said, it's your grief. It's like you're allowed To grieve however you need to grieve. I mean, as as long as you're not being self-destructive and harming other people. Like that's it. That's self-destructive. That was what I was trying to get. Like you are allowed to experience the pain that has come into your life in any way that in an all in in an authentic way to you. We got a we got a lot more things to worry about than how someone else is looking at our grief. Am I doing it right? Yeah. Am I am I doing it c small enough so it doesn't touch anyone else. It's like asking for someone to pour out a cup of water, but it stops before it hits you. Yeah. No. That's not how water works. Right. Water moves until it stops moving. Yeah. Or until it's mopped up. And I I I feel like grief is the same thing. It stops moving when it's done its thing. Yeah. And you have to handle it. And you there are worse ways to handle grief than others. Like we said, it's self destructive. But Just having it. Like we've got way more going on than worrying about that. Yep. Totally agree. And you really did. Yeah. What I've taken from all of it, I think my encouragement piece for somebody listening would be like to try to be happy and grateful for what you have when you have it. I think that, you know most everything in life, well everything in life is temporary. And if you're always like I remember, you know, with my son, it was like, ⁓ well, I just want I just want another we had just moved into the house we lived in and like our boxes were everywhere and it was like if I could just have another newborn experience where like we were all settled and, you know, it was all perfect. And then when I had that, you know, my family was falling apart. So it's like if you can just be grateful and not try to look for like how could this be more perfect? But like, okay, this is hard. I'm in a hard situation and these are the things that I'm grateful for and these are the things I'm gonna cling to. And yeah, I just yeah, I don't know how to wrap that up with a bow, but No, it's okay. I I think it's it's it's easier said than done, right? Yeah. To be grateful in the moment. But As you were talking, I was like thinking, what do what do I do in this situation? 'Cause I do feel like I'm really present with my kid and I feel like it's the benefit of going through all the hard stuff. But But I think some a way to maybe look at it, maybe a way to reframe it, is instead of thinking, well, if I could just, if you just could be more grateful, because that's kind of like saying relax, yeah. ⁓ when you when you can't. ⁓ but I have found that recently, because like everything is in flux at all times when you have a a baby and we moved this past year ⁓ and that was hard, and then we had a lot of issues selling our other place. And I I remember thinking, ⁓ my gosh. But now when I look back at it, it's like that was a year and those are so many memories. And they weren't aren't ones I will forget because they were so vivid and so like nuts. And so maybe maybe a way to be able to do what you're saying is to think we're making memories. Yeah. This is a memory. ⁓ and try to think how am I gonna look at this, you know, a year from now. Because it will have been done. It will be over. And so when I look back at last year, I'm like, Woo, that was a year. That was a lot, ⁓ on a lot of different levels, but that's the year we moved. Yeah. And my kid, you know, like that that's the year we did this, that's the year I did that. And it's like easier when you talk about it in retrospect, yeah, it's easier just to think of the of the hard stuff. It's hard it's hard to remember the easy stuff, I feel. Yeah. It doesn't stick out in your brain. So maybe if you can think, well, great, well, this is gonna be funny and and and ten years or this is gonna be ⁓ a memorable moment. Yeah. You know, memorable doesn't mean easy. Memorable just means you remember it. And if you can put that together with the good stuff, maybe I don't know. I don't know if that's even doable, but I'm like trying to trying to figure out how you can actually be present when you're not present. It's hard to do. Yeah. I mean, I think it's hard work to be intentional about that. but I think you're right. If you can do it, then you're gonna remember more about life and probably take more joy from your experiences. So I will say one of the reasons one of the ways that I'm able to I feel like be really, really present is I write to my my son. ⁓ I've been writing to him since the day before my first workup at IBF. ⁓ which is February twenty two and I called the baby I hope to have one day, Little Blue. Okay. And and then eventually obviously I was like, All right, you're gonna be a boy because I only have four boy embryos here that are going to testing. And so I like have been talking to Archer for years. And I've continued to do that. And ⁓ because I like a I love a baby book. They're cute. Like I have one that I really, really like, ⁓ from a company called company called kept. Mm-hmm. That was hard to say. And it's little things, you know, little vignettes or whatever. But on the whole, what I want him to know later is like how things were hard or what happened recently. It I I don't write all the time. It's it's it's in fits and starts. But when something big happens in the world, I might write about how I feel about it in real time. Or talk about ⁓ the way he says words, which are mostly wrong right now, but I know I'll forget that stuff. So that is I feel like that's an easy way to kind of see like the world around you. That might be a way. Maybe maybe don't do the memory thing that I said earlier. That was kind of useless. but maybe like another way for you to like, you know, get out of your head. Mm-hmm. ⁓ and maybe that's just journaling for yourself. I'm a big proponent of of journaling to get my thoughts out on paper. ⁓ it And I mean it it it leads me to remember things too because you can go back and be like, How did I feel about that? Right. ⁓ yeah, I don't know. I love that. I think that's a great I think that's a great ⁓ what you said is a is right great advice, harder to actually do. Right. But y I think all of us wish that we could have been more present. I definitely wish that about a lot of times in my life. Yeah. ⁓ but that's you know, well I'll make that mistake. Absolutely. ⁓ I feel like it's over and over again. It's a daily thing. I mean, it's like you I think the gist of it is like you can't wait for things to be perfect. They're never gonna be perfect. So Yeah. That's yeah. And that and that's an that's that's an acceptance thing. That's something you can just accept to be to be true. ⁓ I think we all know that we just all think have an idea in our head of how things are gonna go or how things are gonna look ⁓ for our own lives. And the sooner The sooner you can get that out of your head and and live or die by it, yeah. I think the happier you'll be because you'll just be like watching a show, what's gonna happen next. Right. You know. You don't tell the show, Well, maybe my husband still thinks that Ron and Hermione should have gotten together at the end of Harry Potter, but ⁓ but you typically just w accept the show for how it comes out, you know. You might have thoughts about it later, but like you're just watching to see the next episode and I feel like if you can just see how this plays out and what this turns into. Yeah. ⁓ and like as a spectator of your own life, maybe that is that's the key. Yeah. Again, easier said than done. Way easier. Easier said than done, everybody. That's We're we're not trying to tell you how to live. Anyway. Well, Whitney, this has been wonderful. Not because your story was so fun to hear. Right. ⁓ but but but it was I feel like It's a necessary story to be told. ⁓ because I you know, y it's it's unique to you, but it's probably not that unique. and again, that's why this show exists, is to bring some of these things out of like I would never know any of this had happened to you just by k I ⁓ you know, reaching out to you and saying, Hi, how are you? You'd be like, I'm doing well, you know. You might give me a couple of things, but most people aren't gonna go into the the depths. ⁓ after talk ⁓ not seeing each other for how many years? Yeah. I've almost lived in Colorado for eight, which is crazy. Crazy. ⁓ but yeah, I'm I'm so thankful that you were willing to tell your story and ⁓ and and the the hot potatoes were doozies. so I appreciate you so much and I know this will help somebody out there not feel so alone in their own journey. Yeah. Thank you so much, Ashlyn. It's been fun and it's I mean, honestly, it's been good to remember that stuff. Like I think it's cathartic. It really is. I think we do experience these hard things and we try to just like okay, we just need to be done with them. ⁓ but yeah, it's a part of who you are and it should change you because it's a big deal. So yeah, it's it is a big deal. ⁓ this has been great. ⁓ thank you. ⁓ thank you. Thank you. And everyone else out there, thank you for listening or watching. If you have questions for ⁓ Whitney, I don't know if she wants to hear from everybody, but I'm sort of I sort of volunteer everybody on my show. ⁓ because I do think it makes a difference ⁓ to be able to reach out to someone and ask them in in in real life. Yeah, in real time and say, How is this? And I feel like you would say yes because you are a counselor. Yes. ⁓ I'm gonna put her information in the show notes. ⁓ and if you know anyone who could benefit from hearing episodes like this, please share it with them. No one should have to go through this stuff alone or think that they are one of a kind in this way. We all want to be one of a kind, just not in the bad ways. And so if this could help anyone else in your life, please share it with them. ⁓ we'll be back for the next episode with another story. Until then, take care.