Episode 22: Surrogacy With A Big Heart with Jessica Butcher + Amanda Konko

Small Batch Sound: Hey everyone and welcome back to Confessions of a Slow Cooker. I'm Ashlyn Blue, and today is a conversation I'm looking forward to having. Sometimes I know my guests before taping. Sometimes I meet them during taping. Today is the latter. Jessica Butcher and Amanda Conko reached out to me with an idea for an episode. And it's about something that we haven't really gotten into on this show yet. ⁓ surrogacy. Yep. They have a unique perspective on this subject as they are on two sides of the surrogacy equation. Jessica was what she described as the intended mother, while Amanda was a surrogate. This is really cool. I'm really excited about this. Okay, back to what I was saying. Through surrogacy, Jessica's daughter Olivia was born, and because Jessica and Amanda put a premium on relationship versus the unfortunate, baked-in transactional nature of surrogacy in general. They were able to remain close post birth and to this day. And I'll let them describe how all of this transpired, of course. But I did want to mention that their experience led to co-founding an independent surrogacy platform called Little Seed Match. Ladies, thank you so much for both being here today, for reaching out to me in general, and I'm really excited to hear more of your story. Yeah, so exciting to be here and share this because it's It's such a taboo subject, right? It it needs to be talked about more for sure. It should not be one, but it is, yeah. Yes, yes. ⁓ my gosh. So I'll kind of take it back a little bit of of how we got to Saragacy. So I dealt with infertility for three and a half years. I had three miscarriages and one mis miscarriage. And ⁓ my gosh, it was rough. It was rough in in every way. And I had gone to the fertility clinic and probably spent over $15,000 trying to figure out why I could not carry and what was going on. and I remember like so vividly when I had my last loss that it was kind of I became the statistic. I became like the one in six of people that women that deal with infertility. And I never, never thought it would be me. I live a super healthy lifestyle. I do all the things. I'm like, you know, something that's not talked about. And All of a sudden they were like, the only option would be surrogacy if you want to have your own child, like biological. And that left me just kind of panicked because what do you do when you're grieving in stress? I just dove headfirst into being like, okay, I I need to figure this out. What does this look like? And I interviewed probably over 10 of the traditional model agencies of what that looked like in a place that I was so desperate to have a baby. And I remember being like, ⁓ my gosh, everything is just fifty, sixty, seventy thousand dollars for them to find me a match. And them telling me maybe six months to a year. I remember them telling me, Well, there's no guarantee that like you're really gonna find what you're looking for, but we could find you somebody in the biggest decision that I was gonna have of having a baby. Fingers crossed. So yeah. And it was like, okay, so I lost my autonomy of really caring of my own. I lost my autonomy of choosing Who would carry for me. And truly it wasn't until I met Amanda the non traditional way. And it was so beautiful. And like you said, having Olivia in in February that we were like, ⁓ my gosh, we have to share this. Like there's it's beyond us that people can have that beautiful journey and that alignment. And we navigated it so much together. It was it made as an intended parent so much less stress and something that it it should be so beautiful. And ⁓ yeah, that's how Little Seed Match started. That's awesome. I didn't realize she was just born in February. Yes. Yes. Congratulations. Those little giggles. It's no four months. No, it's so cute. Yeah. It it's the best. It is truly. And it it's wild because I just I was like, I can't believe we're on the other side now. Uh-huh. You know? I do know how that feels. Yeah. Yes. It's it happened fast. Like having that alignment, we were ⁓ my gosh, Amanda, right? Like we were going through this process so fast it was kind of almost unheard of again in in the industry. We went through things rapid. And so I think that helped a lot as well. And can either of you explain. So you said the non-traditional way. What ⁓ actually f let me go back a little bit because for someone who did not go through surrogacy, ⁓ who didn't even attempt that, I I don't know if you heard in in the past, ⁓ I don't even know. I don't even know what episode it was on that I mentioned it, but after my first transfer failed for my embryo and I only had one left, which ended up working, thankfully. But my cousin reached out to me and said, ⁓ she's in Tennessee, I'm in Colorado, but she said, Hey, I'd be happy to be a surrogate for you if you ever were in that space. And I it like threw me for a loop. I was like, Whoa, didn't even think about that. But like I don't know if I can carry. I'd never had a positive test. nor a miscarriage. You know, you know, like I'd or rather, I'd never had a positive test, so I couldn't have had a miscarriage that I knew about. And so I didn't know if I could even get pregnant, ⁓ at that point, ever, ever. And ⁓ yeah, I remember it was like a big feeling. I was so thankful, but I was also kind of like sucker punched a little bit with like, well maybe this won't work. ⁓ like after all. But anyway, my question to either of you is what or I guess it's Jessica. Because you were the one who went through trying to find a surrogate. What's that process like the traditional way so that we can contrast it? Yeah. So traditional would be you sign up through like an agency and then you get passed off into like what they would call like a coordinator, and they would be the middleman. So they would sit in on calls with like the initial call. They are kind of basically telephoning through the journey. Like If there's any issues or even any sort of like, hey, I want to change this or I want to do this, they're middlemanning the whole process. Okay. ⁓ they are the ones who put your profile together. They are the ones who will also help look for surrogate for you. so they will f filter through surrogates before you even see what they're filtering through. Yeah. So that I was gonna say in one ⁓ thing on both sides, surrogate and antenna parent is Sometimes you won't see a profile for six, eight, yes, like twelve months. ⁓ so it can it can be a long wait game as well. Yeah. We we quickly realized now that we're on this side of the fence is that surrogates and intended parents usually don't write their profiles at all. So we don't really even know what is being put on. ⁓ and you don't get to see it? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Sometimes they just sell you that we know. So Again, what they sold me every time I interviewed them was like, You you need us. You you can't do this alone. And when you're in a state of again, grieving and the unknown, you're like desperate you're desperate and you're like, ⁓ my maybe I can't. Maybe I can't. Maybe they do know better. Because again, you're in this state of mind that you're like, it's like the carrot being dangled. That's what I remember so vividly that I told Amanda, I like, it was constantly like, How bad do you want the baby? You'll match with anybody. You will settle. you will put aside your core values because they haven't found anybody yet. ⁓ it's just so wild. And so I remember being like, ⁓ my gosh, you're you'll pay 50 to 70,000. Some even offer to skip the line for an extra amount. Some offer like you have to pay a fee to be rematched. So imagine like you waited eight months and then they show you one or two profiles and you're like, no, this doesn't align. Well, if we got to keep looking, like you're going to be waiting another six to eight months or you're paying another fee. So it it's just endless that you're cornered, you know? And again, someone else is picking. It's like someone picking their spouse. Well, I was gonna say it kind of makes me think, and I've never been on a dating prof or dating app or anything. I have nothing against them. I just personally don't have experience. But to me, it's like the equivalent, like you said, a spouse, like, no, no, no, I got you. All right. What you need to say to find your partner. you don't know me. I literally just met you, that's it. Or I haven't met you for that reason, or it it for that matter. That's I I'm I'm flabbergasted personally. Again, I don't have any experience with this. So like it's all first time to me, but I'm like, this is ⁓ cl beyond not clinical. It's like sterile. Which sorry to use that stone, but it so is. It so is. So you're going from, as you know, egg retrieval and everything that already feels that way. into then continuing that mindset. I it's almost like you're set to feel that way. And then that just becomes the norm. And the worst part is it becomes acceptable. And nobody again not is not just talking about surrogacy, but they're not talking about, hey, this this is not okay. Right. This is not okay. So I think it's all we're trained to know. We get that's we get referred from the fertility clinic. Here are the agencies. Here is what there is. You know, so it's either that or you can find someone random online that you have no idea about them. And you're like, okay, how do I navigate this as well? And so that is where we came in as almost like this hybrid. Okay. And tell me about that. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Amanda is really good because at talking about the breakdown of really from the surrogacy side, which I thought that was so important. There was so much more that I didn't realize that. Sarrogates had no idea about. Like they didn't realize how much they were charging intended parents to join. So that's been cool to see of people coming on board. Yeah. It's so a little bit, I'll kind of back up with me. I wanted I felt called and led to be a surrogate. And it took me a few years. Yes. And so it was something that I felt my husband and I knew this was something that was somewhere, just we weren't sure how. And so I looked at the traditional model and it just got really gross for me because I felt like I had to compromise who I was. ⁓ In what way? Meaning if you don't mind. There are, yeah, there are well, first you start, it's a lot of paperwork profiles, you put things in, and then you get denied sometimes based off of either qualifications or things that you have or have not done yet. Okay. ⁓ and you, for example, you can put your termination stance. And you get pushed through, but then someone might reach out to you saying, like, hey, would you consider terminating for X, Y, or Z? And that is so that I felt from my experience that it would make me more marketable or easier for them to find me a match to compromise where I stood in my core values. And so it just was like, this this isn't this isn't the path. And as Jessica mentioned, there are extremes. You have the traditional model, and then you have like finding somebody ⁓ that you don't know on Facebook, but then you also have that ⁓ like who you said your cousin, I believe, offered. So then you have like where you can find something. So that is like the non-traditional model of finding ⁓ independently is what that what that would refer to. ⁓ so then I did not have anybody that I would carry for in my close circle. So I looked on Facebook and then ⁓ it just felt really scammy. For me again, it just it didn't I was I was missing the human connection. And that's where I had to take a step back and go, there's something there's something else, and it's it's not aligning for me. And so it was too transactional. I again it's a baby. The simple goal was to have help somebody grow a family, to have what I'm so fortunate to have. And not knowing the the parents or parent. not knowing the environment, it made me very uncomfortable for a child to be in that because I would be a part of that equation of that journey for that baby to be there. And so eventually I put it on the back burner. And ⁓ like I said, I'll have Jessica tell the story because I love hearing it. It makes me like super happy. But she tells it so well. And so going through I knew that it was not for me and the traditional model. And that's how we came across Going independently together. So as we went through our journey, we realized all these steps. And a lot of things are dictated by the fertility clinic. So those are all in order. And we realized, you know what it is? It's the match. The match of the family, the parent or parents with the surrogate is so important, so vital to have that alignment, lifestyle, diet. I mean, you name it, whatever is important to you and you value should be. Parallel and reciprocated on the other part of that partnership, that journey. Which makes total sense. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Because it all starts from there. So what Jessica and I found is we were so aligned that we advocated together instead of against each other. So we were a force when we went into whatever the appointment was, whatever the fertility clinic with legal, with we already had it all figured out because that wasn't hard. ⁓ and so kind of playing off that, we were like, This is this is so vital. This is where the human connection comes in, the alignment, the transparency, the autonomy. Let's give that back not only to intended parents, but also surrogates. ⁓ sometimes from my experience with one of the agencies, I was not gonna build my own profile. ⁓ I wasn't gonna showcase who I am or myself. I was just gonna be made marketable. That again did not resonate well with me. I was looking for more. And so the platform we've created is a space for intended parents. And surrogates to find each other. You can see everybody's profile. So surrogates can see all the intended parents. The intended parents can see all the surrogates. And we have them fill out the profile themselves with gosh, all the surface level questions and deeper. So that way you know this this is a this seems like somebody I would hang out with normally because we align as friends as if you would. And that makes the journey beautiful. And so that was really the big thing for us. ⁓ on top of making sure qualifications for surrogates were ⁓ followed. And then ⁓ we really wanted to background an identity check and do home evaluations for parents and surrogates, making sure it's a safe environment on both sides of the journey. ⁓ we do deep interviews, we get to know everybody because we wanna be, you know, boots on the ground. We wanna be in the nitty gritty. Yeah. Yeah. We support them during the entire journey. It It was important for us that they weren't passed off to anybody and that they know, you know, who is at the forefront to be able to talk to and have a sounding board and you know, just not feel left alone. So, you know, you don't have to feel like you're not supported just because you did an independent journey. I I love this so much. I think likening this whole thing to relationships in general. Like if you meet somebody, you don't just wanna know their deepest things. You wanna know Yeah. Like their quirks and they're little like for me, I really like Harry Potter. You know, so like maybe we can connect on that. Like small things that is inconsequential to ⁓ if I'm a reliable human, but it's something to talk about, which means there's something else besides this big thing that you're dealing with. And if there's nothing else that I know ⁓ if I know nothing else, you can see how well I talk today. If nothing else, I know that you can feel like a number in the fertility ⁓ clinic game Because they just have a lot of patience. And I imagine it's the same with a lot of these agencies. It's a business, technically. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ not to say that yours isn't, but like there's a way in my opinion, ⁓ or just my preference that business is done. And it it i it's not making somebody feel like a number. It's making them feel especially in this realm. There are so many emotions anyway. ⁓ if you can't get pregnant for whatever reason, you know, whether that be because you had cancer or you have miscarriages unexplained, ⁓ or explained, whatever the case is, if you're that person, the intended parent coming in, you have this. I imagine. I wasn't there. ⁓ you have this feeling of like, I just want this. I've been so far, I've gone this far. What else do I need to do? So you're in that vul vulnerable state. And that leads you to be at the mercy of someone else's decisions. And so what you guys are saying about the transparency ac ⁓ aspect of it, i I think knowing from the get that like, hey, you get to see everybody we've got on here. It's not like What do they do in sorry to keep bringing this back to dating apps? But like what's the one where you swipe la like you get matched with somebody b based on an algorithm? Is it Tinder? Yeah or something. Like but it's only based on like you're kind of close to this person, so I'm gonna like s put you next to this person. But like you don't really that's not a great way to start a family. And this is starting a family, whether or not you're your partners ⁓ in like the traditional sense or partners in this particular journey. Yeah ⁓ you want it to be something you need to see. Yes, yes, a hundred percent. I mean nobody knows. I'm sorry. I know. Well, you know, I think people create a business, like you said, to be profitable. And we created this business to help People. That was our forefront mission. Nothing else. And it's why we work, I would say, till seven days a week till 2 a.m. and just talking to our intended parents if they need support, our Sarah gets to support them. It was so important that that was the forefront. And it was not in the industry of just being like, ⁓ my gosh, let's just create revenue and that's all we care about. Scale. How can we create families? How can we take that pressure off? How can we give back hope? How can we give back that possibility and show them that it can be done? You can find alignment, right? Like they immediately usually shoot that down pretty close. I remember being like, this is kind of it might not be possible that you'll find what you're looking for. I remember those conversations. And so we're like, no, don't settle. What do you need? I mean, our matches are happening in under five days, which is unheard of, like unheard of. Yes. you said like six to eight months potentially, like even maybe before. Yes. That's quite the Yeah. It's a shame. Shaving down. Yes. Yes. Because again, when you give back that autonomy to them and they can talk, you know, in the platform and and connect, I always say it's like if you're not gonna go out and have dinner with these people because you don't really like them, you probably shouldn't have them to carry your baby. For nine months. For nine months. They're part of your family. They are literally a part of your family. And figuratively a part of your family. And hopefully beyond. You know, but yeah. I just I I mean, okay, and can I just say I don't think that every like business is not the problem. I don't think that every business probably these agencies necessarily started out with this one thing and they started out with good intentions. And there's something for everybody, right? Like there's always something, but it gives another option. You know? I think that Problem was that there wasn't another option. Yeah. And that's what really leads to the bigger issue. Right. And my fertility clinic worked for me. It did not work for one of my close friends. She ended up going somewhere else. And we had different doctors, mind you, at the same place. But that's like what you said. Like it everybody, like there's there are there's a reason why there are different kinds of food, different kinds of music. Like everybody has a different feel and a different connection. That's kind of the whole point. And so if these other avenues or these other agencies, their approach doesn't really work for you, yeah, you need an alternative. And what better way than to offer the ⁓ alternative in somebody who knows this side of the whole situation and this side. And not to mention, you I I loved how you sorry to backtrack, but I loved how Amanda, you talked about like it's not just the connection part. That's really that's just as important. But also just as as important is the qualifications and the background checks. I mean, I have a friend, ⁓ I was her like homestead person or or ⁓ no rather, I wasn't her home study, I was her recommendation ⁓ for adoption. And it totally makes sense that you would do the same thing in this thing because it's like my baby hopefully will be in your body for nine months. Like Yes. Hello. Yes. It is so huge. Yeah. It is so huge to have all that safety and check and all of those things. And then it's like when you can check all those lists, then you can kind of be like, okay, now I have to be able to see. This is now I can, you know, connect, communicate. So yes, it it really changes the game. Ugh And so when did you start Little Seed match? ⁓ my gosh. So we started, Amanda, it's been about two and a half months. Okay. And we've had four matches come out and those were under the five days. So it's been beautiful. Yes. I had to, I say it's been ready for a bit. And it was after it's like all my losses, I wasn't ready to launch. It was almost like I needed my daughter tangibly. I remember telling me and I'm like, I need her here. I need to know it's it's really happening. And then I can breathe. You know? And so it was like that moment and like a month after Olivia, we're like, Okay, let's go. Let's go. Because we also wanted to be able to give it a hundred percent to those intended parents coming in, those surrogates coming in. So we had to make sure it was fair for them. And when we were like, okay, we're a hundred percent here, let's go. Yeah. You know. And then also to that, I know how if I did not mention that I was pregnant to anyone like online. not because I was it, you know, didn't want anyone to know, but the people who knew me in my life, they knew I wasn't pretending to everybody. I just had to cut my My ⁓ my belly off on my photos. But at that point, we ultimately found out that my husband and I decided, like, this is ours. I want all of my attention, all of my ⁓ my heart to be going towards getting to the finish line of this part, you know. 100%. Yeah. And I think that was the best decision we made. Also because I didn't want to field some questions, ⁓ if things went wrong. Like I I had already been through enough and enough explaining to the people who did know that things ⁓ did not work out this time or we only got this many embra like I'd already given out so much bad news by that point that I was like, I really just need this to not be a public thing. ⁓ and I know that's not what you're talking about here, but you are being public with your ⁓ hopeful matches. And so I think what's what also is really nice is that once you once she's here, ⁓ you're able to actually even speak to how it felt to get to the other side. Not just not just like you're not like, well, I mean, we're hoping it does work out for us and therefore you. You know, like you can kind of speak from this like place of firmness and foundation. And that doesn't mean you are you're promising that. But I feel like, yeah, like you said, like you wanted to be a hundred percent. You might be a little bit harder to communicate with by absolute normal nature if you are still in that like, I'm afraid the other shoes gonna drop because so many have dropped thus far in my journey. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And right now it's it's hard to I would say when I was going through the process for myself, I didn't get to speak to any like through a traditional way of intended parents that would be guiding me through. So it was somebody that was never an IP to begin with. And I'm like, ⁓ you don't feel what I feel. You have no idea from this side of the coin. So that was a a huge thing for me. You know, 'cause it's it's a hard road. And you know, like with that walk, it's it's rough. I know it's rough, but even I wouldn't be qualified, in my opinion. You know, like I didn't get to that point. I'm that and that's not to compare stories and say someone else got has it worse. I I think that's a very bad idea for anyone to walk down that lane because it's it's it's not helpful. But and and that's not to say that every you know, when I went through my divorce or yeah, when I was about to and then eventually did go through a divorce, I just happened to have someone who had already been through a divorce and it was really helpful. Because she had an understand or actually no, she almost did. They like saved the marriage. And that's what I was trying to do at the time. So although I was like, Okay, like someone has been here before. And it felt n there's a it was germane to me. So like when I asked questions or when I told her something like hey, how should I handle this or whatever, I felt like she came from a place of a true understanding, like you were saying. Yeah. Versus Right. And yeah, understanding how it feels to be sucker punch potentially that your whole life's gonna fall apart. and then my my IBF doctor actually, she did IBF for her all of her children. And she didn't talk about it, but I knew she had told me about that, you know, and so like I knew she she knew how it felt. So even though she was not like fuzzy, she was like very like ⁓ hardcore. ⁓ sh I still knew she knew. I knew that her hardcorness wasn't like a lack of ⁓ compassion for me. It was just her way of like coming at. the whole thing with the the doctor sides, not the the warm and fuzzies, like I said. So, ⁓ yeah, there there's ⁓ and you don't always get that. And some people don't care, but some people do. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Just depends on, you know, what they're looking for and how they're feeling and where they're at. And I think some people don't even realize that they need that. You know? When you again when you're going through it, it's kind of like you you're just navigating the best you can. And it's almost like you need to sit down and take a breath. Yes. And barely at that. And then be like, it's okay. I've been there. I've done it. It's really great to have that moment. But I didn't realize how much I needed that until we went through that and we were to the other side. And I'm like, you know, it's why we put in place like in platform, intended parents can talk to other intended parents in the platform. And same for surrogates for that support because they're right there going through it with them. Yeah. Yeah, and there's something to be said about someone going through something in real time. Yes. ⁓ you know, it's helpful to have somebody who who just went through it like you did or ha you know, push push out ten years from now, being able to say Yeah. ⁓ it's helpful to have both sides. I think people in real time, but also people who've gone through it and are on the other side of it. ⁓ the same thing. I I don't mean to go back to my divorce again, but I remember talking to somebody who's who just went through it or, you know, recently was helpful in one way talking to somebody who was ten, twenty years, had started their own family, literally it was in the distant memory. It was helpful to hear from both of them. And I have a lot of people who t reach out to me ⁓ offline about their stuff that they're dealing with in real time as well. And especially in I feel like ⁓ fertility, science changes so much. So the protocols at all of these clinics can change from year to year. what they decide is normal, you know, yes. Being able to put two in at once versus they don't recommend that up somewhere anymore. Or what do you do after the embryo ⁓ transfer? Do you stay there for forty eight hours? Like, you know, hang out ⁓ and not move, or like, ⁓ twenty four is fine. Like just those little bitty things again. Those things can get stuck in your crawl. You know? A hundred percent. Ours changed because our my first transfer failed and then they were like, ⁓ we have a new protocol. And it was literally like a few months later. We're like, what? Like I know. Things change. They do change so rapidly. And that can make you really nervous when you're in the process of something so big that you're like, is this vetted or is this just a policy change? Was this made up a high or whatever? I mean Yes. And every single thing is so critical in fertility alone. And I imagine surrogacy as well. Again, I say imagine only because I can't speak to it. personally. But like you're actually letting someone else do a big part for you. You you kinda want to hold on tight to everything you can possibly control. And so with the science changing and with things, you know, new revolutionary procedures or techniques or whatever, like I'm a perfectionist in type A. And I do not I don't mind change. I don't mind evolution, but I definitely want to control. A hundred percent. I'm sure Amanda's laughing at that because she's like, ⁓ that that was me a hundred percent. I was like, Okay, everybody move out. Like this is my goal and this is what I need a baby and this is what we're gonna do. This is her. Yeah. Yeah. All the things. ⁓ my gosh. Yeah. I always say it was and then again it goes back to like that yin and yang, 'cause Amanda was so tight B. So this like balance in our relationship was so nice. Cause I was like, All right, Amanda, she's like, it's all good. Wha you know? So having that yes, cause there is constant shifts and changes from one retrieval to the next, from one transfer to the next. Even during journey. Like there was many times I was like, Hey, we're navigating this way And it's like, Okay, what does this look like? 'Cause again we were so aligned, I never had to re explain my thought process. She's like, I would do that if it were me. So great. Yes. Amanda, how are you doing postpartum? I am actually very well. yes, yeah. And that's I mean, gosh, that's a whole other unspoken subject, especially for like non-birthing moms. And so for me, it every their eyes were definitely on me, ⁓ making sure I was taken care of, doing well. I was great. We actually did ⁓ a home birth at Jessica's and it was beautiful. It worked out well. Yeah. It's everything we both imagined it to be. And so I birthed and then I was in my own bed later that night. And she was a rock star. Like literally two hours later, she's like, I'm feeling good. I'm like, Yeah. I I think I took a bagel. I was like, thanks. Literally. It it really felt like I just left the party and I left the mess. I was like, see ya. But no, it was it was beautiful. I had ⁓ and that can be one of those common myths with Sarrogacy is ⁓ that the the Sarrogate struggles longs or has this this attachment with with the baby. And so for me, what that looked like is mindset wise in the beginning, before even Jessica, you know, those years ago, I knew that I was had a purpose to help somebody else to have what I'm so lucky to have. On top of that, what I really think is the relationship that I created with Jessica and the alignment that I had is that I knew that this was the perfect place for me to help a family. ⁓ her and her husband Frank, ⁓ just I I just I just knew I'd be comfortable with them having my children spend the night and watch them. And so it it felt right in the sense that I was here to be a part of their journey and I was honored to be a part of it. And so postpartum wise, you know, we were we I was great. You know, I had ⁓ I think it was two weeks and then I started ha I was like, I I'm I'm feeling great. 'Cause I all I could do was focus on myself and my children. And so I was gonna ask, do you already have children? 'Cause I didn't even ask that before. Yes. Yes. ⁓ I have three little boys. So yes, I had three in three years. ⁓ and they're six now. The oldest is six. And so they are I like to call it manageable chaos, right? Sometimes manageable, always chaos. My sister has three Like that too. She has a seven, six, and five. And then a two. All boys. my gosh, amazing. so I was able to come home and I w had my own children and my own family I could care for. I could focus on myself and recover. ⁓ but you know, if Jess wants to touch on it, there was a lot ⁓ that we just didn't think with the postpartum that actually kind of fell in with Jessica in being missed. And so that's something that Yeah, that was that was total curveball. Mm-hmm. I dealt with the postpartum. So like every time. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like people so people that go through surrogacy and people that go through adoption, they usually kind of run that same parallel. And the non birthing is like, Well, you didn't carry. How could you but we still have our hormones, we're still connected, you know? We're immediately given this baby in our arms and I think our bodies react. It it happens so fast. And I think also the parallel is a lot of times These people that go through Sargus year adoption, we've been waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting. Yeah. And it's all of a sudden you get and you're like, wait, yeah. Is it gonna be taken away? Is this really mine? Is it doesn't sink in, it doesn't like hormonally, I think, connect the brain of that. And so I felt like for weeks, I was like, Well, I don't I don't feel like she's mine. I feel like she's gonna be taken away. And even prior, like Amanda's last trimester, I kept trying to like set up the nursery and I was like I feel like I'm setting it for someone else. Like I never finished the nursery a hundred percent. It was cute and everything, but I was like, I mean, it's not finished. Like it just it kind of sat. Yeah. And then it wasn't till like the last I don't remember how many, probably the last week before she had Olivia that I was like, I was like, all of a sudden I went from like zero to ten and I was like, I'm I'm I'm ready. Like she needs to come out. Like I I need to hold her. And she was like, What? Like just. Like I'm like, no, no, no, now. Like what kind of natural things can we do? Can you start like walking on the stairs and jumping? Like she's like, okay. ⁓ it kind of like kicked fast, but then when she came, it kind of went south quick for me. Like all of a sudden I was like, ⁓ I had a lot of emotions. ⁓ and it also triggered the emotions of like the loss, right? Cause you're like, ⁓ I would have had four kids plus Olivia. So it it brings up a whole lot of things that you just you kind of shove back, even if you go and you talk about it. Cause now something is you see them, they're real, and you're like ⁓ my gosh, I lost four. What would that have looked like? And so all these memories come forward, all these things. And so I think the biggest miss a lot of times with surrogacy, it's like that myth that a man says. It's like they're so concerned with like, how does the surrogate feel afterwards? And I think a surrogate goes in so much with the mindset of like, they're not mine. I'm so ready. I have a family. I have this beautiful life, because you have to have a child to be a surrogate. That makes sense now that you say it. And I probably, yeah. No, I've never done this before. Let me carry yours. That makes no sense whatsoever. Yes, yes. Okay. So then it's like kind of like Amanda said, like they they pour so much. And then the intended parent pours a lot into the surrogate. Naturally, I wanted to. I was so thankful for Amanda. But then all of a sudden you're like, who's filling my cup? Right. So you're going through this whole journey and everybody's like, How's Amanda doing? How's she feeling? How is this? This is amazing. And all of a sudden you're like, ⁓ yeah. Ha, I'm okay over here. And you're going through and going through. And then the baby comes and they're like, How's Amanda? She just birthed. How? And then you're like, Me over here. Uh-huh. Surviving. And so it's kind of one of those things that it just hits so fast. Yeah. And ⁓ I think I don't know. I don't know. I think it's such a missed topic and it affects so many women. And I think when you say it out loud for something that you've wanted so badly that you had postpartum, they're like, How could you not be happy? I remember people saying, You're supposed to be so happy you wanted this. You wanna and I'm like, I I d I did, but I can't help the way my heart my brain is working, right? Like you know, and it's it's so amazing again, it needs to be talked about because I'm not the only one that's dealt with it, right? And it's Well, my husband, he did not carry our child. ⁓ we I had him on the podcast I don't know, weeks ago now. And it was a similar thing. He was saying like this killed him almost and Everybody was yeah, I went through a lot to get, you know, do with as you did with the fertility part of things. Yeah. And then I carried the baby and I pushed the baby out and I had this cease, like I had all the physical things. But that doesn't mean it wasn't happening for him, too. And I know you're not the partner in this situation, but like I didn't understand until I asked him on the podcast, on my my own husband on the podcast, how much it took a toll on him and I didn't feel guilty by you know, because of that or anything 'cause obviously we were together ⁓ this whole time and we were leaning on each other. But it was surprising to me in real time. And yeah, I think you're so right that it doesn't t you know, it just feels more natural for someone to be worried about someone in the physical part of things and think that like Well, you're you've been sleeping this whole time. You haven't had any backaches this whole time. So ⁓ or for you didn't just push out a baby and and have to deal or or have the sur surgery or whatever. Those things are hard too. There's nothing to discount any of that. But like you said, you've had all this time to think about this. I had someone on the podcast a few weeks ago, and she was talking about grieving her miscarriage ⁓ from a pregnancy that was not planned with her husband, but he had a vasectomy that didn't take. ⁓ and they were like done. You know, they were done and then she got pregnant with and he had five sperm left. Five. Like and still got pregnant. Isn't that wild? And so with that, they didn't expect it. They weren't planning on it. But then they got came around to it and then she had a miscarriage. And then two months later she found a lump and found out she had cancer in her breast. And so she realized like now that was in two thousand and nineteen twenty that she hadn't grieved that miscarriage because she had to survive the cancer part next so quickly afterwards. So I'm just thinking about this in terms of all the things you had to endure to get to the point of ⁓ agencies, agencies, agencies, agencies finally finding Amanda and going through that natural thing. But then you you got a hurdle is she gonna get pregnant? Is it gonna go well? Is it what about this next appointment? This next appointment. And it is just so many things that you have to hurdle before you get there. Get there. And then once you do, like you said, it's just like, well, here's your baby. Yes. Yeah. Yep. Enjoy. Yeah. And nobody's never done this before. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yes. Yes. It it's wild. So yeah, that's exactly how it felt. We're like, okay, great. Would you recommend anything to somebody or what would you recommend to somebody? is there anything you would adjust. Counseling during during, okay. Pre during and after for sure. ⁓ I think if it was during, I think it would have either prevented after or I would have had tremendous support to get through it quicker. Okay. So I think counseling is huge. 'Cause when you go through surrogacy, you go through psych clearance and that's literally like an hour or two one time. ⁓ That's it. And And it's kind of just to make sure that you understand like how you're gonna tell your kid and what does that look like and like are you know, it was very it's very casual. It's very quick, it's very easy, and you're like, Yeah. And again, you're just on the go, go, go train. They're asking you pretty easy questions. Yeah. Yeah, I'll make this work. This sounds great. We're excited now. We have a match and then they're like, Okay, you're ready to go. You know, like okay, flip side. I go through much more with psych. Yes. ⁓ mentally making sure all the way down to I had qu I had like a four hundred question that I had to answer. Whoa. ⁓ and then I had a interview my husband and I or my support. ⁓ and it went down to him and I both on we talked about our parents and where like their childhood and so it went deep for us. I was I was surprised 'cause I told Jess, I was like, Man, that was crazy. And she's like, What? Yeah. So again, I just had to say, you know. Mm-hmm. A, B, C, or D. Yeah. That's yeah. Yes. I yeah. The focus definitely leans heavy on the surrogate. It needs to For sure. For support. For sure. And it should lean heavily. It doesn't necessarily sound like it needs to be. Catch the Yeah, let's like bring the other one up a little bit. Yeah. Yes. It just needs to be Yeah, because it's the journey is for everybody involved. Like it's it's two families, it's two people literally walking this journey together because it's Amanda's family also impacted by it. My family impacted by it from little things of appointments and shuffling and moving to something that's so intimate. Like we were all in the room when Amanda had her daughter. Well, room, my house. ⁓ and all those things. And so it's it's many layers to it. And so yes, support should be heavy on both sides. Also, the reason that you're in a place of needing a surrogate in the first place is because you couldn't do something on your own without that without the a assistance. Why is that Why is that seem like why is that psych part not like a a shining red light like this person? Yeah. Why in the world would that be discounted? I understand why this surrogate would be vetted to the you know, the ninth degree or whatever, tenth degree. However, what about the reason that we're here in the first place? Yeah. That's such a good way to put it. It's true. Yeah. I think You know, it goes back to like I don't it infertility has become so rapid and it's become this business, honestly, business of probably making money, right? It's the constant egg retrievals. I told Amanda I'm like from in the last five years from twenty twenty to twenty twenty five, there's been over a hundred thousand more egg retrievals in less than five years. Over a hundred thousand more. What are we doing? What is happening? Are those you nobody's talking about? For for like IBF or like egg freezing? It could be any of it, but still, why a hundred thousand more? A hundred thousand. So what is happening with everything? Like everything is not just counseling, like why is my body doing that? What are why are we not root causing? You know, like what's deeper? We're not we're surface leveling. So it just goes into like, hey, you can't carry. Okay, you're going into IBF. ⁓ huh. You're going into egg retrieval. Or hey, now you're this age, you should You should take your eggs and store them and and look at that. And it just we're funneled. We're funneled into these places. And at least now we can say with what we're doing is like if you happen to unfortunately go into one of these funnels, you have another option. Yeah. Exactly. You know? And that's the main goal is that more and more people are on the rise of having to go into infertility. And even if it's not infertility and they're just storing their eggs, yeah. That doesn't mean that later on they're not gonna be in the funnel of surrogacy because correct depending on when they go Further with their eggs. So again, it's like having a place that they can go to to feel comfortable and confident to move forward in that journey. And how can they take that pressure off and look at something of hope? Right. You may have said this earlier. I've just I just want to make sure I'm precise. How many retrievals did you do? How many ⁓ embryos did you end up having? So my first retrieval, I had one embryo. Okay. I did not PGT test, I did not dispose of any embryos. I was just very firm on that. ⁓ but I only still made one. And it didn't take. Crazy. And ⁓ yeah, I went from the lifestyle of I'm absolutely not doing IVF to doing it twice. so yeah, never saying never again. And so yeah, exactly. Did ⁓ egg retrieval again. I changed a lot of things. I did, even though I again I live a really healthy lifestyle, I added more supplementation, did more red light, just did tons of things. went back, I had them put me, I still stayed on a lower dose of meds. I was really big on quality and not quantity. That was my big thing with my fertility doctor. And I actually made 11 embryos, which was wild because I retrieved the same amount of embryos. Eggs. Wow. That is really good intel. Yes. So I retrieved, I believe it was either 14 or 15 eggs and 11 were embryos. Wow. I know it was from 17 to 2. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I did not I did not genetic test. I told them that I wanted the best like grade that they had, and that's what we would put in first. And then that that was my daughter the second round. That was Olivia. ⁓ and then the rest are frozen. It was one of those things that I did not anticipate because I was very like I don't want to have a lot of embryos because I f for me personally, I was like, then what? Then what? Then what? so it's just kind of one of those things I know. And it was wild because we did a fresh transfer the second time around. Okay. Yes. And I was like, okay, we're doing a fresh transfer. So when I walked in, I didn't know what we had the day of transfer. I didn't even know if we would have embryos, especially when we only had one last time. And then when I watched Trippy to go from like, maybe we'll have one, maybe not, I don't know, to like eleven. What? Yes. So we walked in, they're like, okay, we're placing one today. And we, I think it was three that were freezing and the rest were watching. And I'm like, Okay. And then they're like, We'll call you tomorrow. And you know how that goes. They call you and you're like holding your breath because you get, you know, the embryologist calling you and you're like, ⁓ God, please. And you're waiting for No breologists are super clinical. Yes. Yes. And I and you you're trying to like feel out their tone, like, ⁓ gosh, where is this this gonna go? So they called me the next day and they're like, Yes. And they're like, We froze a couple more. And I'm like, You what? And they're like, We're still watching more. And I'm like, more? So it went on for days where they were like, and we're freezing another one. I'm like, No way. And I mean, it was wild because they all started off fractionated and they were like, That's what happened last time, where I ended up with one. And then they're like, No, it changed, it shifted. But I really felt like it was in God's timing with everything, which is I felt like how everything lined up the way it was exactly supposed to be for us. ⁓ so yeah, yeah, it was wild. But I again I think it goes back to how are you preparing your body? How are you advocating for yourself in the clinic? Our doctor I loved and I think she just ⁓ was also a big advocate for us. So every time I was like, hey, I was reading this, this is what I was looking at, I got the call from her. After our first failed transfer. And she was like, Listen, I was reading this like journal and she's like, she was very big into it. And she said, Listen, there's like a there's about a 10% increased chance if you do a fresh transfer. Like, where's your head out? She's like, I will advocate for you. ⁓ because they told us right away, they're like, It's unheard of for a surrogate to do like everything to line up perfectly. And we were like, What? And they're like, Yeah, because I wanted fresh sperm, I wanted a fresh transfer, fresh, you know, so all these things are like, This is like Never happened, not possible. She advocated it for us. ⁓ it happened. Not only did it happen, but the transfer was on a Sunday and she happened to be on call that day. So like everything aligned. She's like, I I can't believe this is how how it happened. It was beautiful. So I think about again being your own advocate and just knowing your intuition. Like you still have like your mom intuition as you're going through this journey. Like you are becoming a mom and just leaning heavily into that. And feeling like it's okay to advocate just like you would when your kids right next to you that you would advocate for. And that's how I kind of went in. I was just very, very strong of like, no we're transferring. I'm not testing. I wanted a fresh transfer. Me and Amanda were again so aligned to that. She's like, No, like it's gonna happen. Like this is what we're doing. And we prepped her body really well too. And that was important. Like Amanda. I had I think I tortured her a little bit. We did no gluten, no sugar, no dairy for 30 days. We did no red meat for 30 days prior to transfer the second time around. So it's like, not only is it important for me to prep my body, I was like, Amanda, she's like, ⁓ my God, 100%. Like, what can we do to shift the trajectory of like what happened last time? And I have a question to to that end well, two questions actually. So first Did did you find out what mate what what they said about why it wasn't taking? Was there any explanation of that? For the first transfer? For the first transfer of the miscarriages in general? No, no. Spending over fifteen thousand dollars, like I never got answers. Okay. Zero. Zero zero. So to that end, I'm just curious, do you think that knowing that you weren't gonna be in the position and you might not know this, this is more of like a phil philosophical question. ⁓ and you may not have even thought about it. But as I'm hearing you talk about it, I'm wondering, with all the things you did physically for your body to prep it more, do you think the stress of knowing or the lack of stress of thinking that you you were gonna have to ⁓ bear the brunt of the transfer and you'd already had three miscarriages and then also a failed transfer? ⁓ do you think that helped at could have helped at all with like you know, they say like stress is also a big deal. ⁓ do you think that may ⁓ could have made any difference for you as well, knowing like, all right, once I do my part here, I'm passing it off to someone I trust. Hmm. But it helped, I mean, yes, of course. Like somebody that you can trust to carry for you. And I felt like I didn't have to micromanage Amanda or feel like I had to convince her of anything, just like let her do what she would normally do. Yeah, I think that definitely. I remember telling her a million times, I'm like, I'm passing a the baton to you. And I remember when like Olivia came, she's like, Your turn. And I was like, Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So yes, I think she promptly wakes between two and five AM. So ⁓ Yes. Yes. Yep. Yep. And I remember being like, ⁓ my gosh, Amanda. And she's like, Yeah, ⁓ huh. That was that was the nine months. Like I was getting kicked in the rib right around that time. So yes, I think there's something to be said. When you really connect with that person that you you do feel like you're passing that on. And you and it's great that's that teamwork and you should because now it's like her body's done it before. She's done all these things. We've prepared for this. And I feel really confident. Me and Amanda kept saying, like, we want to feel a hundred percent going into this. And that meant like our mind and our body and our connection and our family's connection. And when those boxes were checked, we're like, you know, it's kind of like like a sport or a game. You're like, Let's go. And that's what we did. We literally gasted at that point. We're like, all these boxes check off. And yes, I was so I was kind of so ready. I was like, Okay, I did my part. I got my eleven embryos. All right, Amanda, like, let's go and do all this. ⁓ well and you can't actually know. Like, I mean, and I I I say a lot on the podcast ⁓ with mine, like my progesterone plummeted, but only we accidentally found out because they accidentally ran the rum labs at my lab. ⁓ my gosh. If the The first we're pretty sure what we can't know that that's what happened the first time. And progesterone is like the ball game with your with sticking, you know. And so my gosh. I didn't have any reason for them to check me for my estrogen and and run the wrong panel the first time because my levels were fine the day of transfer. But we're pretty sure that that's maybe why we lost our first one. And that kills me. But we can't know for sure. And so when I asked you that, it wasn't like this is everything that you need to do. You need but like I can't hurt. You know, like to know that you've got the the support system and like, hey, I did my job, I'm passing off to you. And I can't imagine, now that I'm hearing about all this, I cannot imagine not having that if I'm about to p p literally pass my embryo into someone's uterus and not being like, Hey, what do I don't I don't, you know, and I'm a people pleaser. I'm from the South originally. So like, hey, what have you been eating? You don't have to tell me. It's fine. Like I I just I I can't imagine Not n and who knows what a coordinator would do or if they'd be like, Yeah, that's off limits, you're not allowed to work. That's exactly that's exactly what they would say. They say, Go back to your contract. So there was a lot of ⁓ place. Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. So it's it's wild because I get onto the soapbox about progesterone all the time and you bring that up. So I'm a big comp like component for doing that. Like we should be on progesterone. One, it's really great for our bodies, but it is what you said, it's the foundation to keeping the baby. And I we almost lost my daughter because the doctors, not fertility clinic. Well, fertility clinic like, ⁓ she could get off. I think it was like eleven weeks. Like she could just she could get off. She could slowly taper if she wants to. And I was like, I also think progesterone was a big factor in my losses. I do. and so we were like, ⁓ I was already nervous, type A. So I was like, Amanda, stay on it. And again, because we were so like connected as far as like mindset, that she was like, Yeah, okay. Yes, it makes sense. I'm gonna stay on some Around sixteen, Amanda, right? Around sixteen weeks, somewhere around there. ⁓ the OB was like the OB was like, Yeah, she could get off. I mean, you don't know really people's progesterone. And I'm They were saying that from the beginning, like, she doesn't have to be honest. She kept and we're like, Okay. And then we just did our ticket. Yeah. And then she tapered by a quarter and her numbers dropped like significantly, and they were like, She's in the miscarriage, ⁓ like scary window. Like she could lose the baby at this point. We were like eighteen, twenty weeks. And I was like What? I remember literally calling Amanda and she goes, Don't worry, I'm already reinjecting myself with the progesterone. Like this is how much we were like synced. Like I didn't even have to like be like, please. She's like, It's already done. I already did it. ⁓ and she's like, I'm like, Okay. And then at that point, we literally sailed that ship together. We were like, This is what we're doing. So she stayed on progesterone almost the entire pregnancy. ⁓ my gosh, Amanda, how until when? the very end pretty much. I started to taper at thirty four. And then we tested to make sure that I was still, you know, level where we want to be. And then I just slowly tapered out. But we dropped so much that I actually had ⁓ so I was doing the injections, but I actually had this depository. So I did that as well. I was like, I'm laying down, don't worry. We've got this. Yeah. Right. Yeah. We're gonna be okay. Yeah. I mean, so yeah, we're gonna done that. Imagine if you had somebody who is middlemanning this, right? Because you do hit these things along the road and you're like, ⁓ and you're having to explain to somebody and hopefully that they're telephoning it right to the to the person on the other end. And how is that coming across? And then you're scared and waiting for that call. Hey, what did they have? That conversation. Are they gonna do it? Do I I wish I could just hear their voice and say it myself. And so those things are the things that people aren't talking about, you know, as well. Yeah. And this is where it like Yeah, I mean when it's your own body and you go to a a doctor's appointment for during your pregnancy, you're you're getting information from the doctor or the nurse depending on what's going on. And sometimes that's even confusing. Yeah. And it's it's your own it's you and your partner, if you have a partner deciding like what what to take from this or what should we do? What advice should we what should we heed? Should we ask for a second opinion? Like there are so many things you can have. And it's just you. Yes. Imagine I'm imagining, 'cause you guys went through it. ⁓ I'm imagining like someone I don't know calling me and giving me having gone to my appointment without me. And telling me what they think I should know from this. And then telling me that they'll be the one. ⁓ and I'm not the nurse or the doctor. I'll be the one to go to this other person and tell them what they probably should do. It's like like a weird backwards game of telephone, it feels like. ⁓ yeah. It's a hundred percent. And then the worst part is if it's not delivered correctly, all they can say is you have to go back to your legal. And legal usually says whatever the doctor recommends. And so if that either side of the fence doesn't agree, you're literally going back to this transactional experience of what does legal say? Now you have to just do it. Whether it meant that legal says the doctor says get off progesterone and now the baby is lost, it all goes back to legal. And that's why creating that bond, that connection on these things is crucial. It is so important to have that alignment and that connection. ahead time and not just going into a match because you feel locked or because someone else chose it or because you're like, okay, I'm willing to bend. Cause this is not the end all be all in that moment. You have, like you said, nine months, but not only that, the pregame before that. Right. To do all. And so it's all like flowery in the beginning. And then all of a sudden you're like, ⁓ we have these big decisions to make like that that come up. Yeah. And Now you again still very child custody-ish. Like yes, yes. It can feel like a ⁓ bad divorce. Yes. Yes. This is why sometimes legal can take months and months. Like sometimes legal can go six, eight months, which is wild. We finished legal in two weeks, less than two weeks. And you know, this is all happening in real time. So not you guys, because obviously you figured out how to manage this. And then obviously recreate something which is great that would that would ⁓ hopefully avoid some of these legal entanglements or just the word I used to be, well, I still technically am a real estate agent, but like ⁓ talk about transactional, you know, and we're talking about a home and people get really up in in their own canties about their home. It's not a it has nothing to do with a baby though. And yeah, to be in the midst, okay, and Amanda, you've got the hormones going on. ⁓ yeah. You know, the actual like physical part. Jessica, you're dealing with the fact that you can't, you know, if you're type A, you kinda want to be holding on to this baby, but you can't 'cause it's in someone else's ⁓ belly and stuff like that. And like to be like, let's just go back to the contract. Like that I mean ta It's already hard enough is my point. It's already hard enough. Why in the world would that I mean, I understand it is a b it is a contractual thing. Contract contractual thing. It is that kind of thing, but there are ways to get around that. And also a really good contract thinks of everything or tries to. and the best contracts are with people who are thinking things through, not just a template or a boilerplate boilerplate. Yeah. They're thinking about it in terms of that middleman. To me, the delivery of the information is everything. And legal, it's interpretation of the law. And so if it is something that reads a little vague, it depends on who's interpreting. So if that middle person is hearing what the doctor said and interpreting it the way that they kind of think it is, like that could be miss. I I guess mistold or like with like you said, like how did you say it? I'd like to say it from my point of view. ⁓ tone is a lot when it comes down to like if two people go to the same ⁓ if my mom and I go to the same ⁓ doctor's appointment for me, she used to go to a lot of my stuff when I had a lot of ⁓ allergic asthma, stuff when I was on the road, and I just needed someone else to be listening because I was like, I'm overwhelmed. By the fact that I can't breathe and I'm about to go on tour, like it this is not fun. I just and she was a nurse. So we came away with not different, but just different what spoke to us was different. And so and that was something we were both on the same side of, you know? I just yeah. I'm just trying I I'm I'm having trouble if you can't tell. I know. I know. It's it's so wild. And honestly, a lot of conversations, which were so great with me and Amanda was just like truly conversational. Where we were bouncing things off of each other because it didn't have that transactional like stamp to it. So there was a lot of navigating. I I honestly don't even know what would happen if I had a transactional experience if I would have my daughter today. Yeah. ⁓ and then that can be the case. Yeah. Mm-hmm. ⁓ yes. Was a lot of times that I look at Jessica and I said, What what would you do? If this was you? What what does it look like for you and this if you were Pregnant right now, where would you be? What would you be doing? How does that look for you? And then she also looked at me saying, Okay, Amanda, you've you've done this. Your experience, your body, you, you're more in tune than anybody. What what is it that we should be looking at? What's the next step? How does this look so we really relied on each other and made again just the journey was so well done between us that it poured out to everybody else, being like, Yeah. They're they're you guys are doing great. A lot of the doctors are like, okay. We're like, Yes. Yes. Yes, yes. And that's what we created like when we were doing the platform because we're like, okay, here are all the questions that me and Amanda had to like dive through during, dive through pre. And like, so literally when someone's looking in the very beginning, they're seeing all of that right away. They're seeing where their stance is on, whether their faith is a forefront for them or their vaccine status is a forefront for them. Like these are termination, like Amanda said, these are huge key players. But then you're dealing down into diet and and lifestyle. ⁓ and what is that? Imagine you don't know what's gonna come up during pregnancy. You just don't know. Yeah, you don't know. So it's like all of a sudden if some of these boxes aren't aligned and then all of a sudden you hit these very important bumps where you're like, how are we navigating when we didn't agree on this stuff in the beginning? Well, we've got bigger problems right now. And now there's no going back. We've got a baby involved now. So now we've got even more involvement. So yeah, it's it's a wild road that people I think don't prep the intended parents enough when the traditional model is in s in in place for that to be like, Hey, these things can happen. How is that looking? It's more so like, no, you you've got us, you know? And that's Okay. So I've been I I mentioned this a bunch of times as just I've the IVF some of the stuff for IVF works towards us, but weirdly this feels more like my mediation. Divorce. Yeah. You know? And so I I was lucky ⁓ that mediation did do what we needed to do and we were able to agree on everything. But the mediator is is neutral. ⁓ they want you to come to an agreement. ⁓ I liken this middleman to A mediator who like has no dog in the fight. And that's fine when you're trying to end your marriage, right? Like we want you to be happy and go on your way. We want you to be happy, or like we want it to be equitable, whatever. This is not that. No, and it's This is like we are coming together for a common goal, not to separate our lives. And so like I feel like having that middle, I understand the idea that we want to help you navigate this or whatever, but When you're talking about alignment, you just mentioned it, I mean I mean you both have mentioned it throughout this whole process. But like when when the proverbial sh shit hits the fan, what do you want to do? Do you want someone else giving you advice when a but they're not the doctor, they're just a coordinator, ⁓ being the middleman between your communication, or would you rather, if you have the option, to say, like you said, hey, what would you do in my situation if you were pregnant? And ⁓ hey, what would you do that 'cause you've already done it and you're the body carrying this baby right now. That not only would that be a qu much more a quick way to do it, but also like it's for the common good. It's not adversarial. Yes, yes, for sure. I mean the end goal is baby. Yes. End goal is as healthy baby and Healthy for the person carrying the baby at that time too. That was really important. So yeah. Yeah. And and that's another thing. Sorry, I'm on a soapbox now. Sorry. With but with you, like Amanda, you're not becoming a surrogate because you want to like put up roadblocks. ⁓ No, I'm not doing that. I imagine. ⁓ and you wouldn't pick somebody who was gonna be like a thorn in your side throughout a nine month and and the pre part. But a process like that, like that is that is the opposite of what the this whole process is for. And so I feel like, and correct me if I'm wrong, I feel like sometimes the middleman could potentially create that adversarial relationship and kind of make it seem adversarial versus like the common goal is to have this baby. Yeah, of course. I mean, it's like being currently married and then having a middle person go through your day to day marriage and the marriage is healthy. And all of a sudden they're like But we're gonna we're gonna talk and coordinate like your day and the way things are. And you're like, but I could just call I could just call him or her wherever. And you're like, what? So it it it's kind of so strange, ⁓ that it's become what's acceptable. Mm-hmm. And that's when it's like, it doesn't have to be this way. Right. It doesn't need to be this way. Like there's another option. because yes, it it it can cause a lot of ⁓ of a Problem in the middle, yes. Well, because they're really not ⁓ not they work for the agency. The agency dictates what the compensation is for the surrogate. So whose side are they really protecting? You know what I mean? And then a lot of times, I will tell you as for our experience with the surrogates, is that when they come on board, because we have a lot of seasoned surrogates that have been with a traditional model. And then have onboarded with us. And they're like, ⁓ my gosh, I didn't want half the things that they were trying to push. I didn't feel that way. ⁓ my gosh, if I could have just talked to the intended parent, like we would have been settled weeks ago. Like I felt guilty. I didn't. But they just kept saying, like, nope, we minimum you should be making this. This is what you should be asking for. These are things that you should say hard no. ⁓ so it it's not really. Someone in the middle that's active necessarily. Yeah. That is like yeah, that doesn't have like a say in either way. No, they they kind of do, you know, in a big way. In a big way. Cause most of these ⁓ surrogates don't even create their own compensation. They go to a place and they dictate this is what our comp is. So like with us on the platform, they all all the surrogates can create their own compensation of what they feel comfortable with, where they feel heart led, where that lands for them and you know. They feel comfortable because it is beautiful what they're doing, but they have a choice to do that. So we don't come in and say, Hey, you should be asking for more or you should be doing this. It's our big thing is like for who should be coming to our platform is those who are heart led, who wanna pour into each other from both surrogate and intended parent side, you know, to ⁓ to take away that experience of transactional because naturally As an intended parent, you want to pour into this arrogate. Mm-hmm. I don't need to write that in contract. I don't need to write that I need to spend and give you a hundred or two hundred dollars, which is what's normal, into like putting it into contract. No, I just wanted to pour over into Amanda, sending her food. ⁓ my gosh. Sending her having a basket of like all her cravings and stuff. Like this is just what I wanted to do because we didn't have that transactional experience. And so it just beautifully poured over. And then in turn, she was so I mean, the home birth was because of me, because she asked me what I envisioned for myself. She had never had that in her life with the three pregnancies. So again, just being like, Jess, what did you envision? But because we had that, you know, relationship. And I was like, this is what I envisioned. And she's like, Okay, let's like, let's interview and navigate this together. It wasn't even like a for sure. Like, I was like, if you're comfortable. And she was like, Okay, let me see what this looks like. And we like Again, interview together. We went to multiple appointments. We still had an OB on board, but we interviewed multiple midwives. And it wasn't until we both were like yes and yes that we're like, this is how it could look. Mm-hmm. That's amazing. This is so this is so great. I love that I I mean i again, I'm not trying to disparage a business or whatever. Again, I don't think that ⁓ that most people start things out with like trying to make things harder on people. I think it's it's most be It's it's starts out to be a solution, but like when things get bigger or and when what you know, like things I feel like th you lose that personal touch ⁓ of why you started in the first place. And I can't speak for any business out there ⁓ specifically, but I'm just saying like I don't I don't I don't inherently think everything's you know seedy or bow seedy. ⁓ I didn't mean to say that, but little seed match. It started out of a need that you guys personally felt, and I feel like those are the best ways to Go like this podcast came from me being like, people aren't talking about this. Whenever I mention it, they're like, ⁓ yeah, me too. And I'm like, What? I've known you for how long and I didn't know that about you? You know. Yes. The transparency is just everything in terms of how you how you walk in this world. If you feel like you're being seen and heard, whether that's in a surrogacy place or in like your the partner in that journey or in your in your actual partner. ⁓ a marriage, a relationship of any kind, friends, ⁓ just being able to show up as you are and not like you said, literally using a middleman for everything or even the proverbial, like in your head middleman of how thing people want you to show up in their lives or whatever. It's I I love it. I love it. Before we wrap up, is there anything that ⁓ I haven't covered you want to cover, go it. Yeah, well I really think just knowing that if you are going to walk the journey, you are interested in being a surrogate, never even thought about it, but now our inquisitive, ⁓ intended parent that we would love to talk to you. ⁓ we would love to set up a time and just kind of dive in to see what you're looking for, if we're the right fit, and what the journey could look like for you. So yeah, it it little seed match. dot com is where you can find us and then our Instagram is little seed match. And really we just wanna be another path that another option for people. Yeah. And I will put all that in the show notes. Don't you worry. Thank you. Yeah. I this just this personal touch on everything because this is such a personal thing. it's personal for everyone going through it. It's personal for the person personal for the person who's who's gonna be the surrogate. And and go on this journey for another family. And yeah, what what could be better than doing more What could be better than it being ⁓ having that touch right from the start, as opposed to having to worry about building it yourself or wondering if you're missing something. Like that's always that's always a big part to me, is like what I can get stuck in what do I not know or what if I misinterpreted or what whatever. And that can like stress people out. And I don't know about anyone listening or you you ladies, but to me that's the bane of my existence is worrying about stuff that I can't control in the first place. So if you can I'm not saying you can control everything, obviously, but you can control more by having conversations and asking the hard questions at the beginning so that they're easy questions later down the road. And that goes for again every relationship on the planet. And so I love that you're you've got this this platform for people to learn what's the best fit. Because again, Fertility's hard enough. You don't know what's gonna happen. Everything can be flowers and butterflies at the beginning. Yeah. We're really excited to go, you know, we're we just got married. We're so excited. ⁓ and then like the the vows come into play, you know, through sickness and health come into play. You don't know what that's gonna be, but you can do you can st ask more questions at the very beginning of your of your relationship so that you don't find out that not to use this whole podcast is or this whole fertility thing, but like that they don't even want a kid. You know, you could ask that question before and not not cross that, you know, yeah later on in the and be like, what what? You know, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I mean it's like I think the big thing is like you don't have to settle. You don't have to settle in your core values for any for either side. Like you will find exactly what you're looking for. You know, and giving that I think is huge. Exactly. It's possible. Ladies, you are wonderful. I'm so thankful you exist out there. Congratulations to both of you. Thank you. On Olivia. and I'm I'm so glad you found each other too. Like what a gift. Because this now is, you know, bearing more fruit in in this new platform that you've created. And ⁓ yes, I will definitely put all this in the show notes. And if anyone out there listening or watching, please, please take them up on that. If you are considering surrogacy, I feel like people tend to think that it's like a ⁓ It's something to maybe be ashamed of if you have to get to that point. But you and I I didn't personally, but I it's hard to give up the idea that you could hold your own child. It's ⁓ it can feel like a failure to even contemplate it. And so, ⁓ and that's where shame is born in that like feeling like you're not enough. And so, ⁓ I love that you are both willing to not only ⁓ have this this platform, but also come on here and talk about The fact that it can just be quite beautiful and quite lovely. And it's a new friend. Yes. And also for Olivia to know how much she was wanted, you know? Yes. and how much work was done and and what her ⁓ birth story, you know, birthed out herself, you know, this new company for other women, ⁓ and and couples and families that want to grow. So thank you both for coming on. Thank you all for listening. And if you've You know someone who would benefit from this story, this episode. Please share it. That's the only way we can not grow the show in like a numbers way, but growing the awareness in these sometimes not talked about parts of the journey for women and ⁓ and couples alike. So thank you all for being here and thank you, ladies again. And for everyone else. I will see you next week. Until then, take care.