Episode 2: 1 PCOS, 2 Miscarriages, 4 Kids with Maddie See

Welcome back to Confessions of a Slow Cooker. I'm Ashlyne Blue and today is a special day because I get to spend some very rare uninterrupted time with my little sister, Maddie See. Hey May, thanks for coming on. Hey Ash, thanks for having me. Maddie is a unique bird when it comes to fertility because she has sort of experienced it all. PCOS, which we'll talk about, she also has four boys ages seven, six, almost five, and almost two. Yes. that right?

My nephews are awesome. And she also experienced two miscarriages along the way. So like I said, she's kind of all over the place. So I guess with a start at the beginning, when did you and Jordan, my lovely brother-in-law start to think about starting a family? So we had been married about three years and I'm a year and some change older than Jordan. So I was, and I've always wanted to be a mom, always worked with kids my entire life.

So I was ready before him about 26 and... For reference, you are 30, almost 36. Yes, in April. Jordan said... What? I'm old. Continue. Sorry. feel old. Jordan said he wasn't ready, but he wasn't shutting it down either. He was like, if it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, then we have time because we're young. And I thought, great, that sounds like a plan. So...

We were not actively like tracking anything. We were just seeing where it goes. But what I was taught growing up, and I don't know if someone like said these words, you don't ovulate, you only ovulate once a month or, but what, what I kind of thought was if you have sex, you will get pregnant. for reference for anyone else out there who doesn't know where Maddie and I are from, we are from the Bible belt.

in Nashville, Tennessee. And so I don't think any of this came from our parents. weren't, our parents are pretty like open about stuff. They would have like the hard conversations. It's just culturally not something that people talk about in like scientific detail. It's more of a moral thing. Like you grow up thinking or being told even explicitly like sex is bad. And then when you get married, like sex is very good and you're supposed to have it all the time.

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healthiest thing for your marriage. none of that is actually around the mechanics of pregnancy and getting pregnant. It's more about go do it for this time and do it for that time. But yeah, I don't think I understood the ovulation thing. And it's not for lack of like being open to receive that information. just, I feel like sex was just always like a cultural issue. being a- One scientific.

I definitely only remember like a banana of some sort in the sex ed lab. And like looking at the anatomy of a vagina and a penis, but not like... Yeah, that's the scientific... Yeah, as it got. There's no, hey, you ovulate once a month, like no explaining the anatomy of or the process of having a baby. Right.

And I remember carrying a bag of flour around as well. What? Pretending to be a baby. Not like on purpose, but. you meant like during this time you guys were trying to get pregnant. was like. No. What is this? And then I also had like a fake baby that would cry during chapel that I went to every day. So that was always fun. Like during prayer and everyone would be like. And I actually thought that was a really good assignment for people to understand like these, you know. But the mechanics of everything is not taught.

But it should be. And so I personally recommend any younger, not early, not right when you start, but you should probably see an OB. Yeah. You know, when you're a teenager, that's what I would recommend. We, I feel like I didn't go until I was in my twenties. don't, maybe you the same. Like it was just not normal. You start your period around 12, 13, 14. Like you should be going to see someone about that. I think.

We should not just be putting people on birth control. That kind of segues in. what's going on in the hood? Right. That kind of, so I have polycystic ovarian syndrome and had no idea until I was 26. Right. And if I remember correctly, in high school, you had like really irregular periods and that's why they put you on birth control to regulate it. But it also was, what would you call Like a mask. Yeah.

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They said, you know, we would, my mom and I would say, well, why I'm not having periods like regular, why? And they would say, oh, you're just athletic. And it was like, it was just kind of like brushed off. Mom said I did have, I was delivering one of my children. I have no clue which one, but she said, the nurse said, have you ever had a cyst burst? And I was like, no. She said, yes, you have. And I was like, so I didn't.

I had no, apparently I have had a cyst burst in my ovaries, have no recollection of it, went to the ER, have no recollection of it. And I want to say high school. High school, okay, wow. Then that's the for someone to look and not until 26. Wow, that is, I did not know that. I didn't either. Apparently. I'm like, no, I've never. She's like, yes.

Thankfully she was in there, because I didn't know I had staph infection one time as well. my gosh! I was like, OK. OK. So I was just put on birth control, and it did make my periods regular. Through college and then? Through college. I never had painful periods either. I thought everything was great. when Jordan and I were trying, you're off birth control. Off birth control.

Everything should, you know, healthy should be normal. I didn't have a period for three months. And so I thought I was pregnant. So I went in and he said it could be two things. He did not tell me what those two things were. So I just was sitting there like, okay. And so we did a vaginal, internal. Yeah. Exam. Yeah. To see what's going on. And he started counting. And said, what are you counting? And he was like, sis. I said, what?

I have what? I didn't even know really cysts could grow there. he got, don't remember the number because I feel like it kind of, you kind of black out when you're like, what? Yeah, we're confronted with some news. Yeah. But on the scale there's like heavy, there's medium, and then there's light. And I was in the medium. So I want to say like a lot of cysts on both sides. So the anatomy or the problem with PCOS is that

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Your egg drops, but it dies off. So it doesn't go down. So that's why you don't have a period. If you don't ovulate, you don't have a period. So that's the challenge with PCOS. Okay. So I was not ovulating, which is why we weren't getting pregnant. So he, I'm saying he goes, you know, back, finally comes in and says, you have PCOS. I've never heard of this in my entire life. I hadn't heard it until you told me you had it. Yeah. 26 years old. And I get this piece of paper.

And my doctor is amazing. I'm so grateful for him, but I don't think that doctors, or maybe we just didn't know enough about PCOS at that time, because there's so much more now. But I was just given this diagnosis and like, okay, have a great day. And you're like, he said, I don't think, well, he said, you might have trouble. I think I can help you. But all I heard was there's a chance I'm not going to get pregnant.

And I was devastated. Cause that's all I wanted. So of course I start Googling and I read like how hard it is for people with PCOS to get pregnant. personally, By the way, if I can just say Maddie, we come by it honestly. Our dad is a hypochondriac, but Maddie has a, she's a Googler. I'm a Googler. Don't ever Google. Don't be like Maddie.

No, I'll read, I'll type in something and it's like, you could be dying or it could just be a mole. Like, yeah, you could have a calming cold or you could be dying and you're like, I'm dying. I'm already dead. So, okay. So you Googled PCOS. It didn't help you. No, and none of the symptoms are fitting me either. So he suggested I get put on metformin.

and I'm currently still on metformin. And metformin is usually more of a diabetic medication? It's associated with diabetes. so I don't have diabetes, but with PCOS, you're more likely to have diabetes and gestational diabetes. Metformin forces me to have a period. So without it, I don't know if I'd have it.

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I even went to my PCP recently and was like, should I get off? You know, and she actually has PCOS too, which is really nice to have a woman. Yeah, that is nice. Who's kind of same age. And she was like, no, I don't think so because you need to shed that lining too. Cause if you don't, that can also lead to things. So, and because my labs are closer to pre-diabetes, she's like, this will help also. Just, yeah, I'm still on metformin. Yeah. So how long?

How long from taking metformin to finding out you're pregnant with Eli? I think six months on when it gets in your system. So probably eight, but six months of actively taking metformin and tracking my ovulation like a psycho and doing my temperature, doing all the things. And the ironic part was, so...

It was at the six months where he says, try this, then the next step will be Clomid. Right. And Clomid, for those who don't know, is a medication that you take and it helps more egg. Right? Like it releases, you release, you could release more than one egg. Right. Which means a lot of times to twins. Twins or triplets sometimes. I was, I was like, gave it to me. Yeah. So I ordered the Clomid, had it in my bathroom.

And it was the one time, like every time I thought I'd be pregnant and every time I'd be so disappointed and cry. And the one time I didn't think that I would, I was like, I'm just going to see, you know, whatever. I'm going to take Clomid. It was the faintest line. I mean, I was checking so early and that is how beautiful Eli came to be. And he is now seven. man, I can't believe how old he is. and.

Mom was on the podcast and we talked about the, when you called to tell them and you did not know I was sitting at the table. And I purposely called them to tell them in private. Yeah. Because I think there's such, I think women in general have this thing where they're like, why can't you be happy for me?

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And that has nothing to do with someone's feelings of, it's not that you're not happy for someone, of course. I mean, I don't know what kind of person wouldn't be. Like that's not my personality. So I was happy for other people that I found out were pregnant, but some of the other people close to me couldn't understand why I wasn't jumping up and down.

or why I was sad that I was trying and not. When I was trying, right. And of course that's really hard because you're wanting something, but that doesn't take away from the other person. Well, you called mom and dad wanting to tell them separately from me. I knew that'd be hard for you. I that. And I felt you can feel two things at once for different reasons. was obviously, I was so thrilled for you because I had.

witnessed all the pain that you had gone through trying to get Eli and

And because no one knew what was happening, I wasn't prepared for the news. And I just remember kind of like, it just hit me. Not so much that you were pregnant, but that I was so divorced and so not had met Marcus yet. And I was just so far from that. so dad looked at me and was like, God. anyway. I never thought either anything negative of you crying. I know. I know. Because, because mine.

But also you understand, like you said, you understand that you understand that everybody is in a different spot at a different time. And so someone's good news is also coming when someone else's bad news is still there. And if you are someone in like, can take a while to get pregnant. So, and you don't know which camp you're going to fall into. And so you are just living while other people are, you know, living and getting good news. And maybe one day you will, maybe one day you won't.

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But in that moment, you can feel the sadness for yourself and the happiness for that person. And it comes out complicated. So understanding that is just the game. I, and personally, I, where I fall too is like, I can still be excited and still text mom or still text whoever and be like, Hey, it's the size of a peanut or the size of a, you know, whatever. But I wasn't going to text you and be like, Hey,

I'm so hungry because I'm pregnant and it's the size of, know, that's just like putting it in. So I just think that women also need to understand that side of that, that compassion and that you can feel two things at once. Yeah. Yeah. And you are so nice. I mean, yeah, you're my sister, but that doesn't always make a difference to understand the nuances of this whole thing. But I always did appreciate that. Okay. So you got pregnant with Eli and.

He came the next August. was so sad that I like moved two weeks later to Colorado, but don't regret moving to Colorado. Just sad that I didn't get to have that amp time like at home that I've always dreamed of having. So you have UI. you were in the throes of motherhood, earlier motherhood. I remember I was, I was actually living in Colorado, getting engaged, and then we were going to get married in May of

2019 and you call me on FaceTime and look like a Darren headlights. Round two. Round two. I think, no, I called Marcus first. You called Marcus first this time. Yeah. Or maybe. That was with camp. The second or third time. my gosh. This is so this everyone, this is kind of the point of this story or the, this part of the story is that.

The next two were unintended. But Maddie, that's not that you were just like, you know, using methods where you were just like, whatever, you know, you were actively tracking so that you would not get pregnant so soon because you just needed some time. Yeah, we, and it's also with, so I didn't find this out until the fourth baby, but I'll say it now.

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People with PCOS and I don't know about any other things, but I can have like more than once a month. And I did not know that until my beautiful baby Sawyer. So I'm actively tracking, like doing my thing. And we also thought it'd take a long time. I got off of It's been a long time for the first one. So you kind of assume this is the way. So I got off Metformin while I was pregnant with Eli. So I was off Metformin. So I maybe had one period.

And thinking like, okay, I'll get back on Metformin and we'll do our thing and try to get pregnant again. So I was seven, Eli was seven months and we're not trying to get pregnant. And I found out I was pregnant. I called Jordan and I'll never forget. He was in, at a work trip, was in the taxi and I was like, I am pregnant. What in the world? And he was like, okay.

You know, I hear what you're saying and I'm sitting there going, what is wrong with you? Like I'm freaking out. I'm freaking out. you're like, yes. So you didn't call me in the taxi. No. So he's like, I'll call you back in a little bit. And I'm just sitting there going, this is dumb ass. Like, so he calls me back and he was like, I was in a taxi and I was like, I'm pregnant. You know, and we back to me. Right. And we were so excited, but very nervous because.

He was seven months and you know, not potty trained, can't Sitting up, but like a baby. He's a baby. we were having a little baby. were like, I wanted to drink at your wedding. Yeah, I know. I do like wine. I was like, you're pumped about that. I thought that was cute. So and then we were also moving houses then too.

And we knew we always wanted more kids, so we moved at the right time, but we moved into our house in October and Liam was born December 1st. third, December 3rd. December 3rd. That's like dad. I'm like, dad, what's my birthday? And he's like May 7th. And I'm like, no, it's not. It's April. December 3rd.

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So Liam comes and then we were really actively, really, and this was right when- Did you get plan B at this? No, this is not yet. COVID, that was in 2019. Yeah, COVID hit. And then we were seriously actively not trying, tracking everything again. Still don't know that you can ovulate twice. Still have no idea I'm ovulating twice, which is how I'm getting pregnant each time. It was like a running joke.

Yeah. And this time I was still teaching full time. I remember my school, like everyone would like giggle as if like I was doing it on, not trying to be mean, but like, don't know. No one knew what was going on. I cannot be like twice. So they thought like either you just don't know what you're doing or like you're not telling the full truth of that. And that wasn't the case. I was like, I don't know what's happening here. So.

Seven months later, I get pregnant again with Cameron. And I found that all Marcus. This is the time I called Marcus and told him before you. And I was like, Marcus, I'm pregnant again. actually crying. So that's what I think why you called him first. If I, if I remember correctly, because it was more sensitive now. Absolutely. Successful.

And I found out on my wedding anniversary, which I cried for two days straight because I was so bummed. Oh, me. And I don't mean that. And I also think women need to understand you can feel both. Yeah. You can feel not ready. that, I love Cameron is, he is, he's a beautiful soul. The most stubborn child you will ever meet. He's like, we've met and so am I. So it's like this. Yeah. But.

I can't imagine my world without Cameron. And once I came around to like, I can do this. Actual fact that it was like, I can do this. It was, of course, and I was excited. Yeah. So at this point I had three under three, but I'll say our anniversary was not great that year because Jordan, I cried for two days and we went to this retreat like off on our own and Jordan was like, you are fun. Yeah. So

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Cameron's born March of 2021. stational diabetes again, I was induced with every single baby too. And then again, seven months later. And I don't know why it was always seven months. It's like, that seems so weird to me. It was always seven months. I don't know what the, reason for that would be, but.

So I have three. Definitely like after a birth, the way that your body re-introduces itself to normal hormone levels and all that, I don't know. At this point, my doctor had said like, you need to give yourself a break. And I'm like, absolutely. I'm trying. Yeah. Like we're avoiding all of that window. So round four, I do take the morning after pill. And I had three under three. And I don't even remember like,

It's like, I know things before COVID and after COVID because they were all so little. were 15 months when the each, like they didn't even know what the brothers were. They're like, what is this? Who are you? Yeah. Who are you coming into my house, crying and whacking me with toys? So we were careful. We use condoms. And I thought like for triple, triple safety.

I'm gonna take the plan B just to make sure there's nothing like, and condoms are for the most part safe. So I ended up pregnant and.

The same thing of like, I can't do this. Like how I just, I was devastated again. Like what is going on? I'm tracking, I'm doing all the right things and it's like a, and it's so hard to those feelings because some people who are like, you know, I can't have a kid. How dare you say that? And I do understand. But at the same time, if you haven't had three under three, you also can't understand like. You're in a different spot.

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Right. On either side of that. so you can have your feelings about the situation from the other side of the fence, but you have to be sitting on that side of the fence in order to understand. To understand it. Right. And I was terrified having four under four. I, of course, cry. Mom is like, what? Like, how? I'm like, I don't know. Like same thing again. And by this time I had stopped teaching. So.

We go on fall break or maybe I hadn't stopped teaching. don't know. We go on fall break and I finally was came around and was excited and I'm like, I can do this. I can do this. And I miscarried. And this time I had, I thought the same thing with Eli. My uterus is just stretching, even though I thought that thing is stretched like, I don't know. It needs to stretch,

I start having a lot of blood and it doesn't stop this time. So we are on our trip and we just decided to come home because, and the weird part was I felt so at peace that day. And then you get wrapped around that baby, no matter how little you're, it's like, then I was excited. Yeah. And that was the ironic part was that I miscarried the day I was like, I'm so ready for you.

And I would have delivered in June. So come home and I had, it was early, six weeks. So at that point I knew I wanted to have a fourth. I knew I wasn't done. And so we try again. And this, I get pregnant and, and now I miss Carrie again. Didn't we talk about acupuncture at this time? We did.

Because I had been doing a lot of acupuncture and... were also, had done your blood, your blood panel too, which I think... Yes, for my hormones. And trying to start IVFs, took, and I've mentioned this before on the podcast, but it took us a year from the workup when they did the huge panel, all the tests or whatever. It took a whole year for us to actually get started because of an issue that Marcus had with an obstruction and...

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things that we had to figure out in real time. But in 2022 early, which is before this would have happened, I learned that I have a thyroid issue that you also had. And it is just enough of an issue that can affect pregnancy. And so I suggested I was throwing everything at the wall, not having ever been pregnant, not whatever, but like, what can you do for your sister? And I don't even know if we were talking

In terms of like me, we were talking about your labs and you're like, hey, I found out. Now this, yeah. And I was like. it was something that was recommended by the fertility clinic for me just to regulate body and all that stuff. I feel like you did the blood test and you found out you had the, you're hyper or hypo. And this is all your regular OB, not like a fertility clinic.

So we did the blood test and it was just a hair off. Same with you. So I got on the medication and I can't remember if I was on progesterone too. I think I was because I remember that I had the best sleep because it always made me sleepy. I get pregnant with Sawyer.

But back to your acupuncture, I did do acupuncture for... Sawyer took longer to get pregnant with too. Yeah. So I'm sitting in the chair with my acupuncture person and she says, you're showing signs of ovulation. And I was like, no, I ovulated like a week ago or something, week and half ago. And I said, tracked it. got the, if you do clear blue is my favorite because

it gives you a blinking face and then it gives you a steady face, means it's time. Even if you're angry at your spouse or anything, it's time. So I said, no, I've done, you know, I already did. And she was like, I think you're ovulating. And I'm like, no, that's not possible. So she said, just go home and just see. And I was like, okay. I was, I was ovulating again.

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And all of sudden I'm like, ding, ding, ding, ding. Basically means you're fertile all month long. So what we were saying at the beginning is that we thought you could get pregnant anytime. Turns out maybe Maddie can. Maybe I have a superpower. The, with PCOS too, I have more eggs. They're not as good of quality. So that could lead to miscarriage too. That could lead to miscarriage.

She's, and maybe I had other miscarriages that you just died off in the beginning. but that would have been nice to know. Like I was never told that. I thought that's impossible. Yeah. So I'm really glad you're talking about it here because I'm sure there's somebody else out there who has irregular periods who have, even with another diagnosis, I don't know. doesn't necessarily look the part of the classic PCOS person with the hair loss, thinning hair.

maybe a little bit more overweight, weight issues and, what else is there? acne. what else? hair that would grow under your chin or like just facial hair. Yeah. so yeah, I'm, I'm hopeful that someone out there is like, maybe I should go get checked because that could lead to a lot of information that you just know, and have at your fingertips because yeah, I mean, this rocks your world for

years. And I just wanted to mention while you were going through your pregnancy with Sawyer, we got to experience our first and only, because we're both done, pregnancy together. And that was so fun. We didn't spend a lot of time together because we live in different states, but we got like a token picture, which I'll put up here. We got a picture together when you guys came out to visit. We both had big bellies and

We talked about everything, which was fun. Oh, this is coming true for me. And it made it made me, will say. Like I always was, I hated that you had those miscarriages, obviously. Um, and you had to go through that loss, but the way that it ultimately timed out is like, it is so cool because it's like my, my only child son, which was not the plan, you know, growing up, I wanted more than one, but.

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My only child's son has a cousin twin pretty much and that he'll have for the rest of his life. And it makes it easier for me to think, okay, no, we don't live in the same state, but we are very close. I am very close to your, your boys. You're very close to Archer regardless because of FaceTime and just effort. And he'll always have Sawyer as his like little buddy, you know? And so I'm, I, the timing.

Obviously none of us have anything to do with the timing of anything. We can't, unless you just like, you know, stay on birth control or just never try or never have sex. But like all of this stuff happened the way it happened. And the silver lining is that we have almost the same age boys and I just love it. Also, I think that it's the first time, first pregnancy, no, first time in a while. Cause the first two, so two pregnancies were,

two miscarriages worth where you didn't actually have to walk around me. You could tell me stuff in real time, not worry about my plight with infertility and IVF and all that stuff. And so I'm sure that was helpful. It was just nice. We could just be. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is what it is when people are going through something and someone's not going through something, whatever, like you can't plan for that. can only do what you do.

and be sensitive to everyone, including yourself, and have boundaries if you need them. But that was so sweet. I have a card that I, it's over here. It says, is bitter, but its fruit is sweet. And that I feel like kind of sums up our co-pregnancy.

okay. Huh? And we are done surgically. So if I got pregnant, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. we'll, we'll be like calling Guinness world records or something about it and say like, what do you have for me? Right. I feel like if that happened again, I should be in a book. Yeah. and okay. So I want to move to the segment I call hot potato.

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it's really for a place to air out some of the things that are either like super weird that people have said to you during your pregnancy or trying to get pregnant or, appalling or, rude or just anything that, that you have experienced that you want to share with the audience. And you don't have to say who says things. Just, it's just about what is said. and.

after it will rate, because I feel like you have more than one, because you've had so many experiences here, will rate them on a scale of one to five, five being the most egregious. So let's go. Okay. So I'm trying to think the order. I mean, this one is like the first one that comes to mind and I will not share names, I'm working full time, but Jordan was taking, Jordan took the kids to school sometimes and like our stroller had that like bar and they could sit up by this point.

He wouldn't buckle him in all the time and they were just fine. They could sit up, they held on to little thing and like they walked into school. So the one time I don't buckle him in and I'm late to school, big and pregnant and I'm trying to like get them in to daycare, Liam falls out of the stroller. I like, of course I'm like, oh my goodness Liam, I'm so sorry. Like, and this lady who's working the front desk says, you need,

You might need to keep your legs closed.

I held it together in that moment, but I cried right when I got in the car. Well, yeah. Who says that? I don't know. And I didn't want to get her in trouble with her job either, so I just kept it to myself. I did tell my principal and she was like, that is unacceptable. And I said, no, just let it go. Wow.

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Someone actually said that to me. You need to keep your legs closed, which is none of anyone's Okay, well, let's go ahead and say that's a six. Yeah. In a five scale. That's absolutely uncalled for. I don't care if you're thinking it, you do not say that. And Liam is kind of a clutz. He is. He falls all the time. But the one time, like Jordan will take one baby in the grocery store and they're like, wow, winning. Winning dad.

have all four with me and they're crying profusely because I won't let them get a toy because they just got a toy. Yeah. They're looking at me like, can you not keep your baby? The judgment. The judgment. Most moms are really cool about it. like, we've been there, like you go. But some of them who don't, they're just like, but if it was Jordan, they'd be like, wow, what a great dad. is a great dad.

I do remember one time I to Costco with, I can't remember which one, but it was in the winter and I was just, trying to buy groceries and this old lady came up to me and she says, how dare you bring your child into Costco? And I was like, what? She could get sick. I was just the germs of the people. Yeah. But I might, I don't know you.

Also, the alternative is leaving the baby in a car, which is very frowned upon. Yes. Totally. So I'm like, that's why I'm like, what would you have me do? Leave him in the car?

same kind of situation, brought, it had to have been Cameron. I brought Cameron in to pick up Eli and Liam, and I was close with the teachers because I worked in the school district and I love supporting the teachers. So I always try to get close to them and make sure they know how special they are. So I was bringing him in, same thing, I'm not letting people hold him or touch him and have like a little cover over him. And the same lady who told me to keep my legs closed, she said,

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Like, how dare you bring this baby in here and expose him to all these germs? And I'm like, hey, again, I can't leave him in the car. I'm the only one with him. Like. Okay, this woman. We didn't rate the other one. I'm going to say the other one is. That's very common for people to just give like unsolicited advice to. I would say that's probably a three.

Because it's not okay for her to just insert herself into your motherhood. It's not her baby. Why you in the classroom? I'm not doing anything. No, and also like it's just not for her to say. It's just not for her to say. We can have our own opinion. She just didn't need to ruin your opinion. And then the same thing with this woman at the- At the- because she had already insulted me. Right. No, I think it's still a five because she's doubling down on her-

recklessness. I mean, she basically insinuated I was a bad mom for bro. And she said, she said, you need to stop trying to show off. What? OK, we're going back to six. Yeah, that's what she said. That's what was so I was like, showing off. She needs, she needs. I'm not showing off. know. She must not have that job, first of all. And she needs to keep her mouth shut. Yeah. Especially when it comes to my sister.

Oh, and the last one I have off the top of my head is a hairdresser lady, which I do understand this. So, and that's, I think I briefly touched on that. You have to understand the side that unless you've lived that side, like I don't know what it is like to not be able to have kids. Yeah. I do know what it is. this idea. You don't know it personally, but you have some idea. Right. But I do know what it is like to have back to back babies and feel overwhelmed. And I was sitting in, she was washing my hair.

And she was laughing like, how did you get pregnant? And I'm like, I don't know. My hairdresser? Or someone else? OK. We're just talking while she's washing my hair. And I said, again. She's like, what? Same kind of situation that I found myself going, what? And I just was like, it's kind of a running joke. this lady beside me was like, how dare you say that? You don't know what it's like to not be. And she was talking about her daughter.

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to not be able to have kids. And I didn't stand up for myself like I should have, but I said like, I'm so sorry to hear about that, your daughter's loss. But what I kind of wish I would have said is, I'm so sorry about your daughter's loss, but you have to understand, unless you've been in my shoes, like, you can't judge me either. And that's the hard, think that all of us need to...

do a better job about putting yourself in their shoes before we say these mean things. Yeah. Because it's hurtful. I would say that's still a five because not because her heart wasn't in the right place. She's obviously defending her daughter. But I wouldn't have added her. mean, dangerous. She's defending something that her daughter's going through. Our mom had a daughter who was going through something like that. But I don't think mom would have felt

Like she should insert herself into a conversation she's not in, in a salon where you're not talking or announcing this. You're just telling your hairdresser, you just happen to be in a communal space and putting that on you. And I was saying I was so upset. was just saying, yeah, I was, she was asking like, are you ready? And I was like, not that was a private conversation in

a communal space, but a private conversation. So the reason I think it's so egregious is that she laid that on you. Her daughter's plight is on you. And it's, there's something wrong with how you are feeling about your life and your children and your situation that is against her daughter when it was not against her daughter. knew what's funny is that you do have an idea of how it feels because you watched your sister go through it.

You do know how it feels actually to struggle. You got also been there. Did she ask you? No, she didn't ask any questions. She made up her mind and she decided to tell you. And so to me, that's what's uninvited is like the nicest way I could explain that. Yeah. But like, was a moment. I'm sure you were like, yeah, I was really, I was really caught off guard, especially because my

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my heart was not, is not ever trying to hurt anyone. No, of course not. Or offend. It was just a private conversation. And I think what I've learned as a mom is that unless you ask for the opinion, you don't have to give it. Yeah. think that's kind of what I've realized is, and sometimes that's hard. And maybe, you know, if anyone's watching this who I have said advice to that's unsolicited,

I don't want to do that because sometimes you just like, like, let me walk in Costco. I'm not doing anything wrong. Yeah. Unless you're like holding a baby upside, you know, like clearly. Yeah. You're like endanger, literally endangering the child. endangering your child. But otherwise. When it comes to a decision or a judgment call, it's not for anyone else to say. And also just be kind because again, if you watch somebody

walking through stressed about, know, the kid just fell out of the stroller. You're clearly freaked out that your kid falls. So you're not like an asshole parent and offer to help. the other mom, the other people were like, what can we do? Yeah. Cause that is what parents do. But for her to sit there, literally sit there in judgment and say the things she says is, is

I mean, there is just, I think those are the worst. mean, she's, she's got two strikes. I haven't seen her. We don't go to that daycare and there was nothing wrong with the daycare, but I never want to see that lady again. No, no. well, when you, when you hear something like that, I think like you can only handle it the way you handle it, because again, all of these are off, like you get caught off guard. So there's no way for you to prepare for this. No, I don't do well. What I do not do well when I'm caught off guard too. Like I.

I just freeze. don't have... Me too. I find a response later, but that's way too late. So I just am like... Another thing. Right. I know. After the point where I've got all these like things now I can whip out, but during it I was like... But I think it's so good. I mean, you've experienced these things and you obviously over time you learn what not to do or what not to say, even if you've ever said something before. You know, like you said, maybe I've said something before, it was never this bad.

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I can tell you that it's just not your way, but it is. That's why I have this whole segment because it's just understanding where the other, where the recipient is getting it and what they're seeing and from their side of things. It's not, I mean, some of it's funny after the fact, know, like well after the fact, it's like, it's, it's crazy. It's appalling. and you can laugh about it later, but.

In the moment, you just never know. And so if you are considering giving your two cents, maybe take a beat and think, would this help this person? Yeah, or hurt. Or would it confuse this person or hurt them? Or do I have all the facts about this person I'm about to give my two cents to? Right. Which by the way, I should probably change the two cents because we don't do pennies anymore. My favorite two that I get sometimes, they're like, did you mean to?

have four kids and I'm like, I did. I don't necessarily, didn't need to have them that close. But I wanted all four of these babies. Like. And that is such an insulting thing to say. The answer can be complicated. Totally. Would I choose to have them this, what I have chosen? Probably not. But you know what? I'm so happy they are the way they are. And now I probably wouldn't change it. complicated answer.

How do you say everything we've talked about today and wrap it up into, love them, I want them, I wouldn't give them back if you gave me a gazillion dollars. Right. But it was more than just simple, we are trying this month, we got pregnant this month, we had the baby, no complications, whatever. It is never that simple. If it is, then like year one of one.

And so for anyone to say it and maybe you mean it. goes as planned. Just never goes. Like you have a, can't just. is not gonna go as planned. That's right. So sometimes I'll get like, well, do you wish you had a girl? Of course. Yeah. Of course I wish I had a girl, but I wouldn't change anything. I wouldn't trade any of my boys to have a girl. Or I, and I remember being

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I also want to make sure people know that it is so okay to be upset that you don't have the gender that you... I wanted a girl because I'm so close with my mom, I'm so close with you. I thought, oh, that'd be really cool to experience the girl side of it. Regardless, that wasn't in the cards and I wouldn't change a thing. But people are always like, well, would you want... And the truth is, yeah, I would have. And that's also okay to feel both. And I don't feel like people talk about it.

Because it seems like I'm not happy that. Yeah. It's like you're kind of wishing one of the kids wasn't that kid. that's not. So I feel like I wish people would have that conversation more. Wish people would talk about. somebody to have it with because maybe not everybody is helpful in that way. Maybe they don't understand it. But finding somebody in your orbit, whether that's a sister, a mother, someone who you know will get the nuance of. Right.

It should be talked about. Excited either way, loving your child either way, and also wanting or wishing. Because what about the people who get what they want? They don't have to have that complicated feeling. You know, they just get what they were hoping for. And so I totally agree with you. By the way, all my embryos were boys, so I was in the same boat. And I don't know if I cared about the first one, but I'm pretty sure I would have had more of a thought if we had had more and more and that... Really normal.

Why not? Why wouldn't you want a taste of both? yeah, I love that you brought that up, Maddie, because it is, there are lot of things that can feel shameful or ashamed, like you can feel ashamed about during trying to get pregnant, pregnancy itself. And this is kind of the place that I wanted to say these things out loud. So it's like, okay, you can deal with it. And also there's someone who can either, you know, talk you with, know, like,

I'm okay if someone reaches out to me and asks me questions about what I went through and how I dealt with it. And I'm pretty sure you're willing, because you're that type of person, to talk to somebody about that kind of thing. So if you need somebody to talk to about these feelings of like, I wish I didn't feel this way, I do feel this way. I didn't want to be pregnant just yet. Obviously want my child and I'm not pretending, you I'm I'm not trying to get out of this. just, you have to process the feelings that you're having in a moment.

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You can't pretend them away. You can't wish them away. And so instead of pretending that you're not having them and not telling someone about it, it's probably better if you talk to somebody who understands. And that again, can be a sister, a mother, a best friend, your partner, and, spouse or whoever, and then one of us. we chat. Life is gray. It's not black and white. Correct. Correct. I just said correct. I didn't mean to go correct.

All right, so to wrap up, the last thing, and if you don't have anything, it's fine. You've kind of been sprinkling this in the whole time, but if there, is there anything or, you know, a couple of things since you again have so many experiences in this fertility realm that you wish you would have known or a tip, you know, something you would say to your younger self or someone who is in your boat.

Besides getting checked earlier for something like PCOS, is there anything that you would impart on somebody listening today? I feel like, A, yes, get checked earlier. Just, you know, talk to your mom about it or definitely ask questions for sure. Don't Google. Ask medical people who know. And probably just...

Your journey is like, there's no right way to do motherhood. I feel like right now in my stage of life, I envision myself on a beach, just sweeping waves like this. Like that literally is my life. I have this background clean right now and the rest of my house looks like a bomb. And just kind of being like, also it's so chaotic when they're so little.

And it's really hard to appreciate. And I feel like I don't do a good job of this, but like taking a beat, looking at the beautiful things that they do bring like the mess. And I'm such a neat freak to where that's really hard for me. It's okay. It's okay to feel everything in my, my motherhood experience is not going to be the same as yours. And all of it is okay. I would say the same thing for the fertility journey itself and all of your pregnancies, the trying the,

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the losses, the actual pregnancies themselves, the births, you can't decide ahead of time. You can have a plan, just like you have a birth plan. And they suggest that you do, but sticking to it at the expense of everything else, it's not gonna do you that many favors. So it's kind of like have an idea.

of how your fertility journey is going to go. Have an idea of what kind of parent you're going to be if you get the opportunity, but know that it is a loose plan and that you're going to have to, and that's the beauty of it. You don't have to stick to what you thought was going to happen or how it was going to happen. Maddie. Thank you so much for being on this podcast today. Of course.

I have been wanting to talk to you, you know, remember I was saying this would be a book and I wanted to talk to you about it, but this is so much better because I think so it's real. And I don't think I could have put any of this into words for anyone to get our sisterliness. That's not a word. But also hearing your tone when you talk about things that are hard or awkward or whatever like that, I think makes all the difference. If I were in

your boat, I'd want to hear from you. So I appreciate you so very much. love you. I can't wait to see you the next time we, we visit and for everyone else, thank you so much for being a part of our discussion today. If you have questions, like I said earlier, please reach out. I have links to not only my email, my Instagram, the YouTube channel, however you like to communicate with someone, please reach out and I'll also add Maddie's.

Instagram handle on there if you want to reach out to her specific things because she is an open book as you have heard and I know she is the consummate helper because she helped me so much and Said everything that she said today. So please reach out to her or me or both of us or none of us or neither of us rather and

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I can't wait to see you on the next episode and until then, take care. Thanks for having me. Love you, Ash. Love you.